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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4462821 times)

Telgin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26865 on: January 01, 2019, 12:26:06 pm »

I'm curious to see what the results of the "tax break" will be as well.  The elimination of a lot of itemization options is going to hurt me, as well as most of the people I know.

Will it come back to haunt Trump or the Republican politicians that passed it?  Unlikely.
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A Thing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26866 on: January 01, 2019, 01:21:19 pm »

I really wish I could find one of those really long Tolkien sentences with all the semicolons, but alas I cannot; woe is me.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26867 on: January 01, 2019, 01:54:58 pm »

So basically they're forcing the top 20% of earners to use the standard deduction, except for the top 1% and corporations who will still use itemized deductions and pay even less.

So... I'm sure this is dumb but I can't see why.  If we just made everyone use the standard deduction on income tax, would that destroy society?  Because it seems like that would fix a good chunk of our tax code.  I get it would hurt people with a lot of business expenses, but why should some rich asshole not pay taxes on his first class plane ticket he can afford if I'm paying taxes on my train ticket that actually hurts me a lot?

I guess it would hurt small businesses in particular, but I don't know that small businesses should even be paying income tax.  Or businesses in general.  If we tax money businesses hold year to year (as investments or cash, or unused assets like gold), tax money that leaves the country*, and tax money that gets paid out to domestic employees via those employees own income tax... all the money is being taxed.  There's no reason to have income tax on corporations.  And it would solve the small business issue.  If you don't pay yourself with company money** for the first year or two, and you put the money you make back into the business, you just don't pay taxes on your business.

Like seriously what are itemized deductions adding?  From what I understand a little under half of corporations just don't pay income tax, because they can pay money out to charities and get 2-4x the money spent as deductions.  Then they can double dip if the charity is owned by one of their CEO's private sector buddies because the CEO has effectively paid himself that money tax free and then used it as a bribe.  Most people in the country are using the standardized deduction meaning their work expenses are still taxed, while meanwhile everyone seems to agree that we'd prefer that rich people pay their actual tax bracket without deductions.  And its not like personal working expenses mean shit to the Bill Gates of the world, as any major expense is just going to come out of the company.  Under my proposed system that money wouldn't bet taxed in the first place, instead if its say an airline ticket or fine dining at a meeting then the money would only be taxed once the airline/restaurant spent it on something other than business expenses.

*mostly blindly.  Something like there's two rates; if you're paying money out to foreign corporation or freelancer, 5%, if you're moving it to a bank account or corporation you control, 33% or something disheartening like that.  There would be no tariffs, no brackets, just two questions: is the money leaving the country?  And will the person moving the money keep control of it?  Very simple flow chart.  And if you get the 5% rate you have to give the government an itemized list of everything you spent the money on, which congress could subpeona and individuals could make a freedom of information request about it after 5 years (to prevent industrial espionage).  Because I'm sure rich people would think of some scam to get the 5% rate and at least that way journalists and auditors could try and sniff out those games

**as in you're either a person with existing income e.g. from real estate, or you hold on to some of your startup funds for living expenses.  Or if we're talking really small, your parents/SO cover your expenses
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26868 on: January 01, 2019, 04:44:25 pm »

How do you get 2-4x the money you pay as charitable contributions as a deduction? I want in on that action!
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SaberToothTiger

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26869 on: January 01, 2019, 04:45:32 pm »

You need at least one congresscritter or equivalent on your payroll.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26870 on: January 01, 2019, 07:58:57 pm »

How do you get 2-4x the money you pay as charitable contributions as a deduction? I want in on that action!

Let me explain how being rich works real quick.

I know a guy that owns a fur company, a ranch, and a logging company. He's very good friends with another fur company owning feller. They pay their taxes in six month offset rotations very deliberately. Now see, you gotta tally up inventory and pay taxes on it.

So every six months the guy sells all his remaining furs to the other guy... For a dollar. Then does inventory. And vice versa.

Now, let's say one of his three business ventures is gonna have to pay a bunch of taxes. He has that business buy like six new company car/trucks for that sweet deduction. The next highest taxed business then leases those same trucks for an arbitrarily exorbitant sum. And another arbitrary deduction. Now it's all his money. He isn't paying that lease, just shuffling it. But the end result is no taxes or very little paid.

All legal. All fine. But also why does everyone else have to pay taxes if he gets to dance around them with six some million dollars?
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26871 on: January 01, 2019, 08:22:38 pm »

So basically transfer pricing, the most evil tax "avoidance" tool devised: cloaking internal transfers of capital as external expenses and getting a deduction on top of that.

Abolish it and replace with unitary taxation.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26872 on: January 01, 2019, 08:22:41 pm »

Fuck those kind of people. Then they rant about how welfare is terrible and we cant afford universal healthcare. Fuck those people.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26873 on: January 01, 2019, 08:47:59 pm »

I'd like to see real total dollar examples though.  I think people often claim they are dodging their taxes minimizing their tax burden and getting benefit when they may be minimizing their taxes but adding other costs that they aren't tracking appropriately.  For instance, the opportunity cost of all the cash tied up in the vehicle lease scheme.

Consider if he buys $300k in vehicles - he would have paid, what, $75k in corporate income tax on that (assuming it was all profit and at 25% corp tax rate, which I think is too high anyway), leaving $225k in cash.  Instead he has 6 vehicles and no cash.  I guess he feels it's better to have 6 vehicles and no cash than it is to have $225k in cash.

EDIT:  (Sniped) And yes, the getting an internal transfer of cash counted as external expense does need to be abolished. I'm only half astonished that's possible within current rules.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26874 on: January 01, 2019, 09:21:42 pm »

House Dem's have stated that they have a government spending bill ready to pass immediately after they take control on Thursday. The proposed bill does not contain any funding for a wall.
Trump has already tweeted his intention to refuse this proposed bill, and any bill that does not build his wall. Further, the Republican leaders in the Senate have stated that they will not even vote on a bill unless they are confident Trump will approve it.
Thus, the standoff continues, still with no end in sight.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26875 on: January 01, 2019, 09:50:06 pm »

Ah yes fuck us poor people and our tax returns.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26876 on: January 01, 2019, 09:53:06 pm »

Well, if Republicans are unwilling to even look at what the Dems are handing them, I’m not sure how they can spin their way past the optics that this shutdown is Trump’s, and thus the Republican’s, fault
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26877 on: January 01, 2019, 10:17:28 pm »

Well, if Republicans are unwilling to even look at what the Dems are handing them, I’m not sure how they can spin their way past the optics that this shutdown is Trump’s, and thus the Republican’s, fault

Indeed, the Dem's are calling out the Republicans for their hypocrisy, since they are now refusing to consider a bill with the exact same issues that they previously upvoted before Trump turned the whole affair into a partisan standoff.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26878 on: January 02, 2019, 01:31:14 am »

Well, if Republicans are unwilling to even look at what the Dems are handing them, I’m not sure how they can spin their way past the optics that this shutdown is Trump’s, and thus the Republican’s, fault

It's entirely possible that their concerns over the optics are subordinated to their concerns that Trump, to judge from his recent outbursts and the vindictiveness he showed to Mattis, is coming apart at the seams. The latest thing with McChrystal ("big, dumb mouth") sounds less like a social media masterstroke and more like an actual child's tantrum. He couldn't golf, he couldn't go schmooze, and he can't get Mueller and the coming subpoena storm to go away -- and now there's the Romney op-ed and Fox is starting not to support him as rabidly.

He's terrified (and, as a good disciple of Roy Cohn, transmutes all negative emotions into anger), he feels betrayed, and he hasn't anything like the attention span to keep his enemies straight, so he's going to vent all his rage at whoever's behind the latest thing. If the Senate puts a bill on his desk, McConnell becomes that person.
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RazielReaver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26879 on: January 02, 2019, 02:36:44 am »

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