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[misko27]

Ok... Once more, with feeling! Democratic victory in Arizona! AP has called Arizona for Sinema, the first woman to represent Arizona and the first Democrat since 1988.

Senate is now 51-47.

[sluissa]

Example: That racist grandpa that you love but is still embarrassing to be in public with? He's never going to change. But you still do things with him because he's not REALLY hurting anyone. Just the occasional slur that comes out of his mouth.

Hey, I've got one o' those! Actually doesn't slur that much in public though, and technically a grand-uncle, but hey.

On social media though, he's a nightmare... Posts links and comments on every right-wing cockamamie story and goes rabble-rousing around every topic. My dad actually confronted him a bit about some of the things he was sharing, which included several bold-faced lies and complete fabrications...

His response? "I know they're fake, but I like sharing them anyways. It's the thought that matters."

My dad tends to complain about that, but personally my experience has been that some people just distrust everyone not dispensing a certain type of story. I spent a good two hours on discord having to beat into Sprin and BFEL's heads that the Scientific Method wasn't liberally biased.

It's becoming impossible for the opposing sides to argue because increasingly there are no mutually agreed upon neutral and unbiased arbitrates. With nobody universally trusted to distinguish fact from fiction, fiction is becoming some people's reality. If someone doesn't believe in the scientists studying the matter, how can the two of you possibly have a debate that will turn up more than just another rage-filled shouting match at a brick wall?

The problem is that proper science is buried in a sea of paid for biased studies meant to sway one way or another. Even the peer review system is completely broken and it's perfectly possible to get flawed, broken and sometimes completely wrong studies printed in a journal. When things are set up this way it's easy to come to the conclusion that science, as it is presented to the layman, is biased.

His response? "I know they're fake, but I like sharing them anyways. It's the thought that matters."

This feeling seems to have been a very common theme over the last few years, particularly when people explain their support for Trump despite the laundry lists of things that would ordinarily cause objections. I think many of Trump's supporters are genuinely misunderstood (*chorus of tiny violins*) and it goes without saying that a big part of what Trump's been tapping into is a general mistrust in mainstream politics and media (which isn't necessarily unjustified). I don't think this immunity from the truth is something that is at all particular to Trump's personal qualities, but really could've been exploited by anyone who had recognized it. That some greasy cheesepuff stumbled upon this post-truth vortex just by being a habitual liar is actually somewhat fortunate, as things could've been much worse if anyone else with some competence had really realized the extent of that opportunity.

The older Trump supporters I know are just the "Vote republican, or don't vote, because there is no other choice." They're not going to change their vote. Yelling at them is only going to make them even more stubborn. The younger ones I know are the ones who are tired of the recent hard stances the left wing has taken. Many of them formerly identified as left, but got driven out by the messaging that's been adopted.

The left has made itself very easy to hate and then when someone turns against them they're attacked and driven out toward the wings, into the arms of the nutjobs. You're not going to browbeat a right winger over to your side, and you're driving off the people you might have had a chance with. These are the misunderstoods.

Now, I certainly have no love for today's left wing. But I voted Bernie, I voted Obama, twice. I tend to vote dem downticket, I voted straight dem this time, for the first time. I still consider myself moderate left. But I don't feel like I have any allies in the party. I don't feel like I have any allies in the politically active.

Maybe I'm the opposite of that old republican. Maybe I'm the "Either vote left or don't vote." I won't vote for Trump, but otherwise I'm not sure where my vote's going in 2 years. I'm certainly not happy with any of the choices at the moment. My vote this year was mostly a hope that gridlock would be instated. A faint hope of some sort of beneficial compromise to happen as a result, maybe seeping in there, but mostly just gridlock.

But I digress...

Also casual racism is arguably the worst.  Remember: evil isn't enabled and carried out by villainous people.  It's enabled by those for whom caring is too much of an inconvenience, and enacted by people who are just going with the flow.  Both types who will be horribly offended if you ever call them racist.  That demographic vastly outnumbers those with actively racist motive, and racists wouldn't be able to operate without their implicit consent and structural cooperation.

And that is exactly the sort of holier than thou, preachy attitude that will get you more active racists.

Ok... Once more, with feeling! Democratic victory in Arizona! AP has called Arizona for Sinema, the first woman to represent Arizona and the first Democrat since 1988.

Senate is now 51-47.

Yay... :|

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You know what Republicans never say? "Oh, but we can't call out the Democrats, that might drive people into their arms."

Coincidentally, the Republicans always win even though everybody agrees that they're evil, including Republicans.

[sluissa]

You know what Republicans never say? "Oh, but we can't call out the Democrats, that might drive people into their arms."

Coincidentally, the Republicans always win even though everybody agrees that they're evil, including Republicans.

Welcoming and accepting. I just want to run into your arms.

 

[Doomblade187]

You know what Republicans never say? "Oh, but we can't call out the Democrats, that might drive people into their arms."

Coincidentally, the Republicans always win even though everybody agrees that they're evil, including Republicans.

Welcoming and accepting. I just want to run into your arms.

 

Fair, we tend cynical here.

[SalmonGod]

Also casual racism is arguably the worst.  Remember: evil isn't enabled and carried out by villainous people.  It's enabled by those for whom caring is too much of an inconvenience, and enacted by people who are just going with the flow.  Both types who will be horribly offended if you ever call them racist.  That demographic vastly outnumbers those with actively racist motive, and racists wouldn't be able to operate without their implicit consent and structural cooperation.

And that is exactly the sort of holier than thou, preachy attitude that will get you more active racists.

It's not preachy.  It's math.  It certainly gives more credit to mankind than stating that racism gains power and accomplishes horrible deeds, because that many people adopt genuine hatred.  It's a simple reminder that it's not enough to proclaim your hands clean just because you don't actively wish for or intend harm on a minority.  What comfort is that to the minority if the one proclaiming it still willfully upholds the structure of their oppression because of just doing their job, or the alternative is too inconvenient or startling to them, or they maintain the oppressors as their political allies for other reasons, etc?  It's not preachy.  It's blandly describing the consequences of behaviors in the reality we live in.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

[PTTG??]

A thorough analysis of why weather was not a problem for Marine One to take Trump to that ceremony.

Y'know, because we really cared that much about this.

We care about truth, and it pains us so to see so many Americans ignore obvious lies.

[Folly]

We care about truth, and it pains us so to see so many Americans ignore obvious lies.

Truth is boring. We care about bullshit, mainly because it gives us an excuse to get worked up about something.

[Trekkin]

The problem is that proper science is buried in a sea of paid for biased studies meant to sway one way or another. Even the peer review system is completely broken and it's perfectly possible to get flawed, broken and sometimes completely wrong studies printed in a journal. When things are set up this way it's easy to come to the conclusion that science, as it is presented to the layman, is biased.

Well, you could as truthfully say that the problem is that laypeople neither know nor can really afford to care how to tell the legitimate journals from the predatory ones. Fake science is to some extent an inevitable byproduct of open science, but it sticks out like a sore thumb in all but a few highly-publicized cases if you know what to look for. The paid studies are even more obvious; that's why there are explicit funding acknowledgements in literally every real paper, poster and presentation now.

Unfortunately for people looking in from the outside, telling them apart is a full-time job (which is part of why we have RIOs in the first place) and many of the science journalists responsible for distilling science down to its most facile elements and adding science fiction references so the public understands it fail to make the distinction.

Saying that "proper science" is buried is like saying that arithmetic is fundamentally unknowable because everyone else might say 2+2=4 but some lunatic wrote 2+2=THE MOON IS MADE OF BUTTERFLIES in their own bodily fluids on a sanitarium wall once and we just can't know who's right with such credible sources on both sides.

[misko27]

Ok... Once more, with feeling! Democratic victory in Arizona! AP has called Arizona for Sinema, the first woman to represent Arizona and the first Democrat since 1988.

Senate is now 51-47.

Yay... :|

Oy, I promise you that of literally all the issues you discussed in your post, this is the one with the most real and immediate effects. Show me a single adult in America who can't complain about the state of politics nowadays and I will show you someone who has been living under a rock for the last couple decades or so. But 51-47 is real stuff. Every single freaking vote in that Senate matters a big damned deal about what shit they can get through. The wider their margin, the more they can afford to alienate the saner people on that side of the aisle, the more likely it is that they can get away with crap. It matters, it matters a huge god-damned deal, it has real consequences in the real world. The thin margin in the Senate is the sole reason we did not get an abomination of a healthcare "law" that they tried to pass, and if that's not enough for you I don't know what is.

We care about truth, and it pains us so to see so many Americans ignore obvious lies.

Truth is boring. We care about bullshit, mainly because it gives us an excuse to get worked up about something.

Truth is boring, peace is boring, compromise is boring, progress is boring.

You know, I bet dying is really exciting. Really gets the blood flowing, know what I mean? Speaking of, is California still around? Or has that state realized that God did not intend that place for human habitation and is trying to shoo them out?

[Maximum Spin]

The paid studies are even more obvious; that's why there are explicit funding acknowledgements in literally every real paper, poster and presentation now.

Of course, the catch is that the kind of "paid studies" you can catch from a simple funding acknowledgement is the most innocuous kind. Besides, observer effect provably corrupts results far worse than the funding source does, but nobody ever has to write acknowledgements about the assumptions they held before starting the research.

[Reelya]

You know what Republicans never say? "Oh, but we can't call out the Democrats, that might drive people into their arms."

Coincidentally, the Republicans always win even though everybody agrees that they're evil, including Republicans.

Firstly, are you responding to anyone in particular, because that isn't clear.

Secondly, I just said "conservative" one time, and Trekkin jumps immediately to "they blow up synagogues". Conservative is the self-described label of 40% of the country, and another 40% are moderates, so presumably half of those are conservative-leaning moderates, and half are liberal-leaning moderates. So, about 60% of the nation consider themselves either conservatives or conservative-leaning. This is why it's fucking dumb to alienate each and every one of them by just assuming conservative is synonymous with Nazi who blow up synagogues. And whenever "moderates" comes up you guys just sneer that they're just as bad as the conservatives and not worth shitting on.

This is nowhere near the same as saying "Republicans can't be criticized".

[Trekkin]

Secondly, I just said "conservative" one time, and Trekkin jumps immediately to "they blow up synagogues". Conservative is the self-described label of 40% of the country, and you guys are saying each and every one of them are literally Hitler. Calling out labeling half the country as actual card-carrying Hitler fanatics as a stupid idea is NOT the same as saying Republicans cannot be criticized at all.

I'll explain more concisely this time.

They're not all literally Hitler. Nor do they need to be. Most of them just need to be okay enough with fascism not to substantively object to it. That's all it took last time.

[SaberToothTiger]

You know what Republicans never say? "Oh, but we can't call out the Democrats, that might drive people into their arms."

Coincidentally, the Republicans always win even though everybody agrees that they're evil, including Republicans.

Firstly, are you responding to anyone in particular, because that isn't clear.

Secondly, I just said "conservative" one time, and Trekkin jumps immediately to "they blow up synagogues". Conservative is the self-described label of 40% of the country, and you guys are saying each and every one of them are literally Hitler. Calling out labeling half the country as actual card-carrying Hitler fanatics as a stupid idea is NOT the same as saying Republicans cannot be criticized at all.

"don't call everyone Hitler" isn't the same as saying "you must treat them like Mother Theresa".

if they're older than 14 then there's no point convincing them anymore, only they can change their own minds

don't bother

[Reelya]

Trekkin: Ok, so you're doubling-down on calling half the country Nazi-lite. Then wonder why they don't listen to other things you have to say.

The point being: you're using this rhetoric mainly to justify why you shouldn't have to do any outreach to try and win any of them over, then act like it's their fault for not falling in line with your doctrine.