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[Hanslanda]

"Well how will your country ever get better? _{plus I really don't like scary brown people}"

...you know, I had a post getting prepared in regards to actually agreeing the imigration system needs reforming.  But then you did this.  That was fucking uncalled for, and I now remember why I despise coming in here.  I can barely even start saying my opinions before I'm dogpiled barely able to respond, and get insulted.

For note, I wasn't implying you were a lawless criminal. I was pointing out that it's extremely easy to commit misdemeanor crimes.

[hector13]

Not really.  Eastern Europeans and Irish didn't come in illegally upon the same scale these populations are coming in.  What was it, conventional estimates of around 11-12 million with some estimates yet higher?

You seem to be implying that all of those 12 million undocumented migrants are of the central and southern American persuasion.

42% of undocumented migrants in 2014 were visa overstays. As in folk who came in legally, and stayed longer than they were supposed to. Summarizing the politifact article after that, arrests of illegal immigrants on the US southern border have also fallen in recent years, meaning that an increase in the undocumented migrant numbers will likely be down to further visa overstays of the people who entered legally.

Frankly, given those numbers anyway, what’s an extra 1k, or 10k, or even 100k people? Not all of these people are going to be a criminal element. Some of them might be, but that’s no reason for turning away every single person in the caravan, assuming even the most exaggerated estimation of the numbers even travel the entire distance to the US.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Zanzet, if it helps, I think most of the dogpiling was because of the mention about migrants technically being criminals. Also the due process. Given the forum's left lean, a persective on how you would go about reforming the system would be nice.

"Well how will your country ever get better? _{plus I really don't like scary brown people}"

...you know, I had a post getting prepared in regards to actually agreeing the imigration system needs reforming.  But then you did this.  That was fucking uncalled for, and I now remember why I despise coming in here.  I can barely even start saying my opinions before I'm dogpiled barely able to respond, and get insulted.

I don't think that was aimed specifically at you, just the mentality. Also, please do say your opinions, what are your ideas for reforming the immigration system?

Boiled down to its most basic in order to reduce how much of my own annoyance at the current time bleeds into it:

Create a secondary path in addition to the current one for those who can't afford it based around the citizen to be performing military service or other governmental job such as infrastructure work, mail clerk (for those with a decent grasp of English.  Need a more 'show how' for those with a weaker understanding), or serving as daycare workers for those in other jobs for a period of time after which they are guaranteed citizenship within the US, with classes to help them get a GED and National Career Readiness certificate during weekends, for those doing civilian work, or on leave, for military personnel.  I don't know exactly how much this would be and some may require more time than others, so let's say around 2 years as a vague estimate.  Maybe have 1/6th to 1/4 (random estimate and depending on job) of their pay (so long as it doesn't drop them below minimum wage) is set aside to fund these classes, an equivalent to Section 8 housing for them, and pay for medical issues.  Have it so that a conviction for non-misdemeanor criminal offenses (getting arrested would merely put things on pause) will cause an instant failure and return to the nation of origin.

Combined, this would allow them to prove they really want to be here rather than freeloading to help dispel that impression, provide them with marketable skills, a high school diploma equivalent, a governmental certificate that can help them get into different jobs depending on the level they achieve, and would help eliminate potential criminal habits they have.

As potential side benefits, there's a promotion of bilingualism in the United States, improvements to infrastructure, and if added in with decentralizing the Federal Government to have things like the Postal Service or National Weather Service moved from the highly expensive Washington D.C. area to Cincinatti, St. Louis, Detroit, and similar cities, both the potential revitalization of cities and cheapening of the Federal Budget .  May even improve impression of the Federal Government in those regions as well.

Probably some kinks that need to be worked out, but again, summary.

[Doomblade187]

.... that is a pretty good plan. Though we would want to create a similar program for citizens to avoid the outrage of 'ree funding illegals ree'

[Telgin]

And there's no way we could have guaranteed government jobs available to citizens, because then the free market can't compete and something something socialism.  I kind of find it funny that conservatives believe that the government is both too good to compete with and too incompetent to do anything.

Anyway, since the only thing the US government can decide to increase spending money on is the military, offering citizenship for military service is probably at least politically possible.  I'm not sure if it's a good idea... something deep down inside of me fears that it creates perverse incentives that make it more dangerous than it sounds... but I really can't think of any specific problems off the top of my head other than the fact that it does indeed translate to an increase in military spending.

Well, one issue, if we limited it to that, is that a lot of potential immigrants aren't going to be suitable to the military.  But other jobs, yeah, maybe.

[Trekkin]

Combined, this would allow them to prove they really want to be here rather than freeloading to help dispel that impression, provide them with marketable skills, a high school diploma equivalent, a governmental certificate that can help them get into different jobs depending on the level they achieve, and would help eliminate potential criminal habits they have.

If someone's abandoned everything they couldn't carry and walked a thousand miles to be here of all places, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt without two years' indentured servitude, and statistically we could bring them all in blindly and see a net decrease in crime. "Immigrants are all potential criminals" is up there with "immigrants are all potential disease vectors" in the list of only technically true reasons bigots like to throw up to defend their racism and if we're playing with optics we probably shouldn't play to that.

Besides, giving them a GED equivalent and a government certificate and expecting them to find a job is just throwing them into private wage slavery afterwards anyway; I really don't want to see the sequel to the gay cake shop "religious freedom" farrago be business run by nationalists rushing to define exclusionary bona fide qualifications. If we're going to decide that these people just aren't ready to compete in our job market and so need to be forced into the military or the government, we should probably get them out with a bachelor's degree.

[Karnewarrior]

What about the blokes who can't speak English? Forgive me, but I can't find anything for them in that summary.

My personal opinion on that matter is that since the economic problems are so tightly tied to illegal immigrants rather than legal ones, it would be far easier to just make the legal paths to immigration easier to get through and quicker, and "wider", so that we could allow through and process all the immigrants coming here, preferably without requiring any unpayable fees or such. That way there's no incentive to be an illegal immigrant, and with the documentation in place, we'll be able to cut down on exploitation issues too. Streamlining the system would also make the Cartel have more issues sneaking in operatives too, since any given immigration worker would have less to pay attention to and miss, and fewer mistakes to make.

This also applies to Visas. Make them easier to renew, and I'm pretty sure you'll see the rate of renewals rise too.


In the end, the immigration problem stems from the differential in QoL between Mexico and the U.S., so nothing we do with our immigration laws is going to change the number of people coming through, just who we know about and document and who we don't know about or document. Walls and fences only work against creatures unable to use ladders, after all, and even then only have so much effectiveness. Increasing border security only make the illegal immigrants more dependent on clever tricks to fool us - tricks mostly owned by bad actors like the cartel.

[Gentlefish]

And there's no way we could have guaranteed government jobs available to citizens, because then the free market can't compete and something something socialism.  I kind of find it funny that conservatives believe that the government is both too good to compete with and too incompetent to do anything.

Anyway, since the only thing the US government can decide to increase spending money on is the military, offering citizenship for military service is probably at least politically possible.  I'm not sure if it's a good idea... something deep down inside of me fears that it creates perverse incentives that make it more dangerous than it sounds... but I really can't think of any specific problems off the top of my head other than the fact that it does indeed translate to an increase in military spending.

Well, one issue, if we limited it to that, is that a lot of potential immigrants aren't going to be suitable to the military.  But other jobs, yeah, maybe.

Enlistment guarantees citizenship!

[smjjames]

And there's no way we could have guaranteed government jobs available to citizens, because then the free market can't compete and something something socialism.  I kind of find it funny that conservatives believe that the government is both too good to compete with and too incompetent to do anything.

Anyway, since the only thing the US government can decide to increase spending money on is the military, offering citizenship for military service is probably at least politically possible.  I'm not sure if it's a good idea... something deep down inside of me fears that it creates perverse incentives that make it more dangerous than it sounds... but I really can't think of any specific problems off the top of my head other than the fact that it does indeed translate to an increase in military spending.

Well, one issue, if we limited it to that, is that a lot of potential immigrants aren't going to be suitable to the military.  But other jobs, yeah, maybe.

Getting citizenship through military service is an available path already, just shouldn't be the only path.

@ZTG and Karnewarrior: Well, maybe not guaranteed government jobs, but one way to reduce illegal immigration is to reduce the incentives for doing it illegally. Speeding up things so that it doesn't take a decade or more just to get in legally or to get a citizenship would help towards deincentivizing coming in illegally.

As for what hector said about almost half of illegal immigrants being those who overstayed their visas, I'm not sure how to solve that other than just enforcement. Sure, some of them are those who gave up waiting for a legal route, but it doesn't seem like there has been any studies actually looking at the issue of visa overstays and why they're overstaying since a defunct government agency was folded into another one.

[Reelya]

The fuck?

Okay, first, how can their due process rights be violated if they are neither in the country nor citizens of the US, and nothing has yet actually been done to them?  There something I'm not aware of, because that just seems like going after someone for something that hasn't yet been done.

Second, why the fuck is the Flores Agreement a thing that can be done by criminals (see below)?   There are embassies that they could have gone to to claim the status *before* they entered into the US illegally?

You've just contradicted yourself here. You said "that just seems like going after someone for something that hasn't yet been done" but then you call them a "caravan full of criminals" when they haven't yet broken any laws. A person who has yet to commit a crime is not a criminal. And anyway, the lawsuit is against the removal of the right to turn up and request asylum. If someone turns up at the border and requests asylum, they're not a criminal, because that's a legally recognized thing.

And the lawsuit was challenging the constitutionality of an announced decision. Since that's challenging the legality of the ruling itself, there doesn't need to be a named victim, because that's not how constitutional challenges work. An unconstitutional law is an illegal law in and of itself.

[RedKing]

For the record, I'm actually in favor of a Zivildienst-style system somewhat like what ZTG is proposing. Though I would want it extended to ALL citizens. It galls me to no end to see white trailer trash ranting on about how immigrants ought to get their citizenship the "right" way, when those same troglodytes couldn't pass the same citizenship tests in a million years.

If Trump does manage to somehow revoke jus soli citizenship, then I propose we modify jus sanguinis as well -- all children born to Americans have automatic citizenship until the age of 18. At age 18, they all have to pass a citizenship test and do four years of mandatory civil service or two years of military service (during which their citizenship is extended provisionally). At the end of their term of service, they're permanent citizens.

You can bet people would start pushing for better educational systems in a hurry.
 
Other benefits:
-Large number of twentysomethings entering the workforce (or higher education) with at least basic job skills and a few years of experience, and hopefully a nest egg of earned pay.
-Steady reduction in the bottommost tier of society through loss of citizenship (accommodations would have to be made for those with genuine disabilities which prevent them passing the test and/or finishing a term of service)
-Later introduction to university environment should reduce amount of undesirable behavior on-campus, and improve educational outcomes

Cons:
-Imagine most government bureaucratic functions staffed by surly 19 year-olds. (Then again, those are currently staffed largely by surly 60+ year-olds, so at least functions might be slightly faster).
-What to do with those who "wash out" -- potential for a permanent underclass of "resident aliens" with no country of citizenship. (Suggested solution: Let Texas secede, dump them there.)

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Oh joy, let's make citizenship dependent on the military. Yeah, America will sort itself out with some good old boot camp indoctrination.

I know that's not actually your advocacy, but you can bet that any sort of "merit" barrier is just going to be recrafted into "no blacks, no leftists, bomb bomb bomb Iran".

[Reelya]

Steady reduction in the bottommost tier of society through loss of citizenship

This seems like a con, not a plus. All that means is that you have an ever-growing mass of people with no democratic rights, and the powers that be have a system that can be exploited to trim the citizens constantly. The end result is oligarchical fascism.

[MrRoboto75]

We should just consume the rich instead.

[Maximum Spin]

We should just consume the rich instead.

There will never be enough rich. At least eating the poor is sustainable for a while.