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[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Oh hey.  That lawsuit is being done by Nexus Services.  You know, these guys.

I can now see why they're trying everything they can, even the patently ridiculous.

Third, how is stating the migrant caravan is full of criminals wrong?  What is with people thinking Europe's Schengen Area applies globally?  Entering a country without a passport, and unless there's a Visa-free agreement without that, is a crime.  Several have entered into Mexico in that manner outside of being brought to a processing center due to making a claim of asylum.

How many of them do you think were criminals before they started their journey? 100%? 50%? 10%?

I get the point about illegally crossing borders but labelling all or even most of them criminals as if they were criminals before the journey is what's wrong because that's not even true at all.
[/quote]

What is the point of bringing up their prior past?  They've already performed a crime and therefore they have become criminals.  The statement is thereby made true.

And for a moment of humoring the thought, how can you say that is false before they committed that crime?  In fact, given its currently several thousand strong (last I saw it was floating around 7000), it is far likelier to be a true statement than false as 'many' does not imply majority.  Even if it were qualified as 'before they went on the journey' which I do not see to be the case in wording though could be argued to have been the intended connotation, even a few dozen would satisfy the conditions.  As such, taking the approach there are those within it is by far the more logical approach with the percentage rising due to breaking laws on the way thereby reducing the mental barrier to do so especially if they start getting more and more desperate for supplies, and as they could be picked off by cartels.  With the larger sample size, this also moves from possibility to certainty thanks to the more people there are the more likely it is that will be a fair amount that will cross the line.  It's all simple percentages applied to a large group.

[Kagus]

50 years ago Americans died to fight racism and fascism. Will they vote today?

Unless there's an aspect of American history I'm missing facism was 77 years ago. Though Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated 50 years ago so I'll give you racism...

I believe you'll find that facism was closer to 1400 years ago, around the time when Emperor Heraklonas had his noble face disfigured by impromptu rhinectomy, thus disqualifying him from holding a position as ruler. Facism continued for many years after, with only the freshest and prettiest faces climbing to political supremacy.

[Gentlefish]

-snop-

Well, when one considers the saying "Many Americans" one typically is lead to assume "most" and not literally dozens of them. Which, depending on context, is indeed many.

With Herr Trump in mind, let's look at his previous statements. "They're not sending their best. They're sending rapists, they're sending murderers. And some, I assume, are good people." The key word here is "some". He's assuming that only "some" of the immigrants that come our way are good people and that Mexico regularly and purposefully exiles people to America.

Considering he thinks only "some" immigrants are good people and not rapists, murderers and druglords, it's not a leap of the imagination to say he thinks the majority of the caravan are the latter and not the former.

Trump likes to hide behind vagaries in his lies. I heard "weasel words" mentioned somewhere. "People said", "Many others think", "I was told that" are all weasel words. "Oh, I don't believe that (even though I said it with authority on national television), it was something I heard from other people!" Even though he meant it. After all, he outright denies things he's said on camera before. Like his feelings on Obama where he refused to acknowledge his words and sat at his desk and shuffled papers.

And in this case, while he believes that basically all immigrants and anyone coming to apply for asylum (which, need I remind you, is not illegal) are terrible criminals, he hides behind words like "many" which can be literally dozens or so, or hundreds, or most of the crowd, instead of talking about the majority (>50%) of them being criminals.

What you need to remember, in this case, is that these people are running from horrific conditions (likely caused by our meddling in their governments) and are looking for better homes for their families. They don't want to be part of the cycle of violence and crime of their home nations. They want to do better. We should let them.

What happens when they get here of course, is due process. We should not just turn them all away but look at each person and family individually. Those who really wish for another chance at life deserve it. They're the new Eastern Europeans and Irish of America. Just because they weren't born here doesn't mean they don't deserve a chance at greater things.

[smjjames]

50 years ago Americans died to fight racism and fascism. Will they vote today?

Unless there's an aspect of American history I'm missing facism was 77 years ago. Though Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated 50 years ago so I'll give you racism...

I believe you'll find that facism was closer to 1400 years ago, around the time when Emperor Heraklonas had his noble face disfigured by impromptu rhinectomy, thus disqualifying him from holding a position as ruler. Facism continued for many years after, with only the freshest and prettiest faces climbing to political supremacy.

That typo again, lol.

[Hanslanda]

It's fallen to about 4000 in my last reading, and is still 1000 miles away.

As for the "criminal" remarks, you know just as well as I do that they're not being called criminals over their crossing of borders, but over what things they'll (not actually) do when they arrive.

*obligatory*
First and second generation immigrants are scientifically proven to commit far fewer crimes than natural citizens, ignoring the misdemeanor that is illegal entry to the USA.

Yeah it's a misdemeanor. Punishable with a 0 dollar fine and deportation. I can almost guarantee ZTG has committed worse crimes on accident. :p

[Trekkin]

It's also worth noting that the suit itself isn't saying anything about whether or not calling them criminals is accurate; it's not a libel suit or anything. It's asking that those statements be considered in trying to establish whether the President's proposed actions are actions he's legally allowed to take, since intent matters there.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

It's fallen to about 4000 in my last reading, and is still 1000 miles away.

As for the "criminal" remarks, you know just as well as I do that they're not being called criminals over their crossing of borders, but over what things they'll (not actually) do when they arrive.

Since when did I bring up how far away they are?  At least don't get the estimates wrong when you do, as they were estimated at 900 a few days ago and the most current I can find is that they are heading to Texas about 600 rather than the more distant California.

And how can you say they'll not actually do that?  Again, statistics demonstrably prove you wrong in the likelihood that there'd be none and next to none have been able to be investigated since they forced their way past Mexico's officials.  Unless you have some sort of magic omniscience of their lives, you cannot say that.  Stating there are at least goes by likelihood.

Yeah it's a misdemeanor. Punishable with a 0 dollar fine and deportation. I can almost guarantee ZTG has committed worse crimes on accident. :p

Wrong.  Alongside the deportation, there's a fine between $50-250 and/or up to six months of jail time for the first attempt or a Title 18 sum and/or 2 years jail time for subsequent, becoming far worse if falsely entering into marriage (up to 5 years and/or an up to $250,000 fine) or establishing a buisness (Title 18 sum and/or up to 5 years).  And since when is a misdemeanor not a crime and not merely a label for being a lesser punished one?

And seriously?  You really don't know me if you're making that latter statement.

What you need to remember, in this case, is that these people are running from horrific conditions (likely caused by our meddling in their governments) and are looking for better homes for their families. They don't want to be part of the cycle of violence and crime of their home nations. They want to do better. We should let them.

What happens when they get here of course, is due process. We should not just turn them all away but look at each person and family individually. Those who really wish for another chance at life deserve it. They're the new Eastern Europeans and Irish of America. Just because they weren't born here doesn't mean they don't deserve a chance at greater things.

And do you think these cycles of violence will become more stable with everyone who might not want them leaving, allowing the current order to become steadily more and more corrupt utilizing the extremely porous border of the US to get rid of those who want something different, preventing a rebellion or political shift allowing the nations to actually fix them?

Not really.  Eastern Europeans and Irish didn't come in illegally upon the same scale these populations are coming in.  What was it, conventional estimates of around 11-12 million with some estimates yet higher?

[Gentlefish]

The whole immigration process was absurdly different back then. It was "If you can make it here, you can get in". They were all legal immigrants, and they got just as much shit as we're giving these caravaners who haven't even arrived at the border. There was a time they'd just be asked their name and they'd be issued a Social Security and told "Welcome to America".

[RedKing]

Yeah, I get damn tired of seeing the "Make them come in the *legal* way, like my great-grandpappy did!" argument.

You know what immigration entailed 100 years ago? You had to be able to read and write in your native language, and you needed to not be carrying an infectious disease. That was it. No visa, no passport, no proof of employment, no green card, etc.

You showed up on the boat, told the nice man your name (which would then likely get butchered into some Anglicized form), and what country you were from, and where you planned on going. Prior to 1917, you didn't even have to read and write. One of my great-grandfathers got here from Russia in the 1910's and didn't become a citizen until the late 1940's (after being denied three times). Some Mexican great-uncles of mine traveled back and forth between Mexico and the US like it was just going to the next state over.

We live at a time in US history when immigration requirements are the strictest they have been in our country's history (and when Obama was President, that was equally true) yet Trump loves to make it sound like there's no laws whatsoever, and now he's the new sheriff in town. If there's a spike in illegal immigration, if anything it's because the laws governing immigration have become so onerous that virtually no one can afford (in terms of time and/or money) to follow them.

It costs thousands of dollars for all the paperwork (plus more in fees for immigration attorneys and such which almost a necessity given how arcane and bureaucratic the process is) and can take years, sometimes decades, to get legal permission to immigrate.

EDIT:

And do you think these cycles of violence will become more stable with everyone who might not want them leaving, allowing the current order to become steadily more and more corrupt utilizing the extremely porous border of the US to get rid of those who want something different, preventing a rebellion or political shift allowing the nations to actually fix them?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're trying to say "If we let all the good people leave <let's say Honduras for example>, then Honduras will just get shittier and shittier. Won't someone think of the poor Honduran national future?"

FUCK. THAT. NOISE. Condemning someone to stay in their country of origin and face death for themself and their children because of some abstract "Well how will your country ever get better? _{plus I really don't like scary brown people}" notion is some straight-up elitist bullshit.

[Doomblade187]

Wait. You can be arrested for starting a business in the US while an illegal immigrant? That sounds pretty fucked up.

[EnigmaticHat]

Illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly vulnerable to crime, for the same reasons prostitutes are.  Can't go to the police.  This is why some police like sanctuary cities, because it results in a higher reporting rate for crimes and more witnesses coming forward.

A 50$ fine is a misdemeanor.  I got a larger fine for not buying a train ticket once.  Felonies in the US generally face much more serious penalties including in some states mandatory decades/life imprisonment for 3 strikes.  Would be kind of awkward to pay to support someone in prison for 40 years because we didn't want them in our country.  Also Trump dispatching troops to turn away asylum seekers is illegal under international treaties we've signed; we aren't supposed to refuse entry or deport them until they've ascertained whether they would face torture or death in their home country.

Edit: I don't know about imprisonment, but you can't run a business in the US period without licenses.  Its how local governments collect taxes and enforce zoning laws.  Since illegal immigrants couldn't apply for those licenses legally... by definition any illegal immigrant self-employed is running an illegal business.

Its the same way that if you're an illegal immigrant in the US driving a car is by definition a crime.  Hope you don't get in a car crash!

[Kagus]

We live at a time in US history when immigration requirements are the strictest they have been in our country's history (and when Obama was President, that was equally true) yet Trump loves to make it sound like there's no laws whatsoever, and now he's the new sheriff in town.

There are no laws or barriers preventing just about anybody from getting in, while simultaneously vetting has never been stricter!

It's like when I visit my grandmother... I never eat anything, but she's never seen someone eat so much.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

"Well how will your country ever get better? _{plus I really don't like scary brown people}"

...you know, I had a post getting prepared in regards to actually agreeing the imigration system needs reforming.  But then you did this.  That was fucking uncalled for, and I now remember why I despise coming in here.  I can barely even start saying my opinions before I'm dogpiled barely able to respond, and get insulted.

[Doomblade187]

Zanzet, if it helps, I think most of the dogpiling was because of the mention about migrants technically being criminals. Also the due process. Given the forum's left lean, a persective on how you would go about reforming the system would be nice.

[smjjames]

"Well how will your country ever get better? _{plus I really don't like scary brown people}"

...you know, I had a post getting prepared in regards to actually agreeing the imigration system needs reforming.  But then you did this.  That was fucking uncalled for, and I now remember why I despise coming in here.  I can barely even start saying my opinions before I'm dogpiled barely able to respond, and get insulted.

I don't think that was aimed specifically at you, just the mentality. Also, please do say your opinions, what are your ideas for reforming the immigration system?