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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4472811 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23910 on: October 05, 2018, 08:27:23 pm »

And so the system of controlled opposition comes through once again, carefully listening to our Deep and Important Concerns about the movement of the nation to support rapist politicians, before forgetting about that entirely to reach across the isle in the name of reasonable centrist politics in lieu of the unelectable radical leftist positions like not being a spineless shitheel with no personality or a total shameless monster of a human being, the only acceptable positions in a rational and evidence-based policy system.

God Bless America.

Now can we please all recognize that we are at fucking war? Pack the court, impeach the Republican Justices, whatever, just as long as you stop having faith in this bullshit.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23911 on: October 05, 2018, 08:47:27 pm »

Yeah, it's definetly about time the Democrats stopped playing nice and started playing hardball. :P

As for impeachment, what have Gorsuch, Alito, and Roberts done that would be impeachable?

Theres been talk of packing the court for some time now.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23912 on: October 05, 2018, 08:53:18 pm »

Gorsuch's nomination was illegal. Also, I don't need a reason. Fuck em. Any decent person would look at these records and disbar them, much less let them be on the Supreme Court.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23913 on: October 05, 2018, 09:02:06 pm »

You know I was obviously talking about Merrick Garland?
Try harder next time. You totally failed to disprove my assertion.

Kagan and Sotomayor were both Obama appointees as well. Ginsberg and Breyer were Clinton appointees. Garland was ONLY moderate as an attempt to get him past a Republican Senate with the threat of a Clinton nominee on the horizon. You can't just throw a single forced example with no context out there and say "Look, proof we do the right thing!" when you have multiple other glaring counter examples sitting right there.

That said, it was the right thing to do, but I don't believe for a moment that Garland would have been the pick had the democrats controlled the Senate when that opening came up.

Should all be like Garland. But the system as-is is a house of cards, opposing sides propping each other up to make something that somehow stands.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23914 on: October 06, 2018, 12:35:12 am »

You can't just throw a single forced example with no context out there and say "Look, proof we do the right thing!" when you have multiple other glaring counter examples sitting right there.
What's so forced about "the most recent Supreme Court nominee"? It's not exactly cherrypicking, it's literally the most recent example. And by god, I will not let anyone forget Merrick Garland. That's exactly what they want, and so it's exactly what I refuse to do.

The point isn't that there are judges with political leanings (your position is apparently that only moderates can be on the Supreme Court, which I won't let you just say without defending it), but rather that Democrats offered an olive branch and Republicans promptly shat on it, for months, to an indefensible degree. Nakedly partisan.

Tit-for-tat rule requires that, if you want cooperation, you must punish defection. Republicans turned down cooperation.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23915 on: October 06, 2018, 06:17:20 am »

You're ignoring what I'm saying. I never said Garland was the wrong choice. What republicans did was wrong. Fully. No excuse. I don't want anyone to forget Garland. I want it thrown in their face, along with Kavanaugh anytime the supreme court is brought up as the wrong way to do things.

I made my case why it's cherrypicking. If you can't see that then you're ignorant of reality. A bully beats you up and takes your lunch money 4 days in a row and leaves you alone the 5th, you don't say, "Well, that makes him a pretty decent fellow." Even if that doesn't necessarily make him the worst bully you've dealt with.

As for why only moderates. Mostly because the supreme court is a moderating influence. It's not supposed to push us in either direction, or in any direction, it's to hold us back from the worst impulses pulling us in any direction. Make us think long and hard about whether we really want to do this extreme thing, because if we do now we need to take the extra steps of a constitutional amendment or otherwise limit our original plan to a less extreme version.

That's the way it was designed. That is its purpose. That is the only way it can effectively function given the way the government is built. And having a court full of opposing extremists means there is no moderating influence anymore. Simply a continual tug of war.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23916 on: October 06, 2018, 09:28:43 am »

What about Thomas Hardiman? He's relatively moderate on that graph up there. Supposedly more moderate than anybody else and is the closest to a Merrick Garland on there. Don't know anything about his views however.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23917 on: October 06, 2018, 10:34:26 am »

Also without knowing any of his views in detail, I feel like a Thomas Hardiman would be an improvement to the court as it stands. Not saying he'd be perfect. Nobody is, and that's why there's 9 of them up there, but likely an improvement assuming we didn't find out anything unreasonable about him.

All contingent upon a reasonable nomination process of course. Never know what sort of dirt might turn up on him either.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23918 on: October 06, 2018, 10:56:48 am »

Never know what sort of dirt might turn up on him either.

So what if he raped someone in college
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23919 on: October 06, 2018, 11:11:42 am »

If you can't see that then you're ignorant of reality.
Speaking of moderating influences, there's something to be said here about maintaining our chill composure.

Quote
As for why only moderates. Mostly because the supreme court is a moderating influence. It's not supposed to push us in either direction, or in any direction, it's to hold us back from the worst impulses pulling us in any direction. Make us think long and hard about whether we really want to do this extreme thing, because if we do now we need to take the extra steps of a constitutional amendment or otherwise limit our original plan to a less extreme version.
This may have used to be true, but the Supreme Court's other job is to interpret what Congress says. That's not something most people think about, but as Congress has become more do-nothing over the years, the Supreme Court's ability to decide how Congress is to be interpreted has become more important. Consider Obamacare: it twice went up to the Supreme Court, purely because of vagueness in how Congress wrote it. Congress could have superseded the Court at any time by passing a law explaining what they meant. They never did. So that's an example of the Supreme Court effectively doing Congress's job for it.

Quote
That's the way it was designed. That is its purpose. That is the only way it can effectively function given the way the government is built. And having a court full of opposing extremists means there is no moderating influence anymore. Simply a continual tug of war.
On one hand, there's a Supreme Court Justice agreeing with you right now. On the other, I disagree that the Supreme Court must necessarily be full of moderates since if you were to take that view, the Supreme Court has never fulfilled its mandate as it should have. It has almost always been full of people with certain kinds of views: in the late 1800s it was deeply pro-business, for example. Calling this the result of recent partisanship is itself a sort of cherrypicking, since you're looking at two decades of a two hundred year institution. What of the Fuller court, which argued in Plessey v. Ferguson that equal protection clause did not prohibit racial segregation? Or the White and Taft courts, which argued that the 14th Amendment applied to "Legal Persons" like Corporations, and which overturned over the years many labor protections enacted by the states? Then in the 1930s, the Court looked like it did today: a liberal bloc and a conservative bloc (known as the "Four Horsemen", apparently), with a liberal Republican who would side with the latter on economic issues. Then the Warren Court, which made many important decisions, but was almost entirely appointed by FDR (one of the consequences of a 4-term president)? Brown v. The Board of Education, Miranda v. Arizona, the court cases which established the rights to privacy, that struck down mandatory bible reading. I could go on...

My point is that you'd have to ignore the history of the institution to claim that it was designed for moderates, anymore than to claim that the US can't have political parties: you might have had a point, 200 years ago, but it's 2018 now, and fighting to turn back the clock now is equal parts impossible and silly... (It's also remarkably Originalist, ayy).
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23920 on: October 06, 2018, 11:51:39 am »

The criticism to originalism applies when you've got outdated sections of the constitution flying directly in the face of what the country has decided they want to progress to. I agree when you've got people who want to strip all the amendments back to the bill of rights that's damned crazy. I also agree that there's argument to be had about 1st and 2nd amendments being as untouchable as they've been made out to be. But what you're arguing is that the very foundation of the government, the three branches, the checks and balances, the concrete upon which everything else has been built, is itself flawed.

I won't argue that it hasn't been corrupted. There's rot all over the structure. Congress ISN'T doing its job. The President is constantly trying to overstep their bounds. And a lot of that falls in the Supreme Court's lap because hey, that's what checks and balances do when someone else is doing their job wrong. But that doesn't necessarily mean the design of the foundation is flawed, it just means we've built the wrong thing on top of it and refused to maintain it.

Fix Congress, make them do their job. Hold the president accountable. Don't send stuff to the justices that they could fix themselves. But the mistakes up top aren't necessarily going to be fixed by modifying and building onto the bottom. Maybe we do need a completely new system, but at the same time, given who is in power has screwed up the construction of what was once a relatively solid building that could handle some mistakes, I don't trust them with the design of something completely new from the ground up either.

I'd much rather work within the bounds of what we have, and use it as it was intended, than try to mold it into something it was never meant to be. There are proper methods to modify the constitution, but packing the court in either direction is not one of them.

EDIT: typos
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 12:48:57 pm by sluissa »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23921 on: October 06, 2018, 03:05:31 pm »

Well, the Senate just voted to confirm Kavanaugh with 50-48. The only Democrat to vote yes is Manchin of WV, Murkowski was going to vote no, but she put in as present so that Daines of Montana wouldn't have to fly back early from his daughters wedding. He was going to vote yes anyways, so, it wouldn't have changed the count.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23922 on: October 06, 2018, 03:37:56 pm »

Yup. Here's looking forward to taking back the house and putting the fuck behind bars for perjury, I guess.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23923 on: October 06, 2018, 03:56:22 pm »

I'm having doubts the demos are going to take the midterms.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23924 on: October 06, 2018, 04:07:14 pm »

I'm not. Senate is unlikely, but it'd take several different sorts of fuckjobbery to not see the house flip at this point.

And one chamber is all that's needed to open an actual fucking investigation, particularly into the whole lying to congress shit.
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