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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4241702 times)

George_Chickens

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23805 on: October 02, 2018, 10:29:23 am »

Oh, you edited your post with some more content. I can respond to this, that has way more stuff.

Yet, somehow, that is "Just totalitarianism", and not Fascism. 
Really, the ONLY difference is the nature of what constitutes the nature of "Traditions".  Or, what constitutes the nature of "slaughtered."  (Since I guess being forcibly changed into something you are not, and do not desire to become, is somehow not a death of personhood.)

Yes, indeed, there is a difference between garden variety totalitarianism and Fascist totalitarianism. The ultranationalist aspects explicitly play into every aspect of Fascism: the expansionism, the racial orientation, and even aspects of the totalitarianism all play back into this element, hence there is certainly something separating it from other forms of totalitarianism. Whilst complete disregard for human autonomy is an aspect of Fascism, it comes to Fascism in the form of its of greater totalitarianism, from which Fascism distinguishes its self within with its social darwinism and extreme expansionism. Whilst these two elements are not inherent aspects of totalitarianism, they absolutely are of Fascism and are repeatedly stated in Fascist ideological documents, propaganda, and seen in Fascist states.

Let's take for example the Fascist view on race and economics. As a result of Fascist philosophy, Nazi Germany viewed many, many races as being inherently, genetically inferior parasites leeching off of the German nation. The Ustache, Iron Guard, and MANY other Fascist groups took the same approach, and these views are seen all over their societies. Even leaders who took a more cosmopolitan approach (Mussolini's "there is no such thing as a biologically pure race in the 20th century") continued, due to ultranationalism, to claim that their people were inherently ethnically or racially superior whereas others were inferior. This ultranationalist view is precisely one of many features which set Fascism apart from simple totalitarianism. Likewise, the Fascist view on economics lead to mass privatization, a stark contrast with the left wing totalitarians.

Now let's look at other, non-Fascist totalitarian states. Let us go with Enver Hoxha's Albania, Stalin's USSR and Mao's China. Whilst all extremely authoritarian states which put little worth to human life, the racial and ultranational propaganda is completely absent, but they continue to perform mass repressions for completely other reasons. Likewise, they all have a completely different economic systems and completely different views on society, particularly in lacking social darwinism. Ergo, whilst Fascism is totalitarian, not all totalitarianism is Fascist, and the features shared are as a result of totalitarianism and not Fascism.

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The example you have cited, does not follow the pattern defined, despite claiming to.

The pattern, again, is:

We can return to X (A fantastical, fictitious ideal that never existed to begin with), IF ONLY---

Yes, ideological myths, and the idea of a return to a great mythical past are indeed a large part of Fascism. However, to put Fascism simply down as that concept is ridiculous, when it is an aspect of hundreds of ideologies, authoritarian and otherwise, which are entirely separate  from Fascism. Take, as an example of a totalitarian state, Albania again. They had a myth of being a great strong Illyrian people who would surely return to power if they could just destroy foreign influence and the 'imperialists'. Despite this, Albania continued to not run on, but rather contradict Fascism. Instead of invasions being a great extension of manhood and a natural thing to be approved of, everything remotely within the realm of expansionism was imperialism that had to be resisted. Instead of social darwinism, an inherent part of Fascist society, there were no euthanasia programs, no concentration camps for the homeless, and no view of other nations as inherently weak and worthy only of slavery. Instead of the protection of traditional national economics and culture, everything that could conceivably be part of the old society was annihilated. As it runs completely counter to Fascism, contradicting the very basis of its philosophy and actions, it cannot be considered it. However, it continues to be a totalitarian state. And these concepts that it runs counter to are not merely things I have pulled out of my arse, they are features visible in the core writings of Fascist philosophy, the quotes of Fascist dictators and Fascist society. If these aspects do not make up Fascist society, why is it solely the power of myth that does?

Likewise, as far as I am aware, an aspect of the French Revolution was the stated return of the "natural rights of man", ergo, "We can return to the fantastical utopia of natural rights if only we behead the nobility." Yet I do not believe any man arguing in good faith would call the French Republic a Fascist state, owing to the fact that it shares little to no ideological ground and came hundreds of years prior. Though that has not stopped some... strange people.


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Really, the crux of your argument is "But it does not fit the same stated goals of the fascist nations, therefor not fascist!"
Perhaps if you have ignored everything I have said, sure. The point is more "It does not have anything to do with the core tenants Fascist philosophy, it has a fundamentally different outlook than the Fascist states, but it continues to be in line with totalitarianism". Your argument is fallacious in that it assumes that anything which shares myth and authoritarianism is automatically Fascist, even if it may contradict aspects of or espouse nothing of Fascist philosophy.
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When the counter argument is "There is something that all of the fascist nations had in common, and that is the pattern of achieving and maintaining power:"
The bolded aspect is the very argument I have been making to you. That the extreme philosophy and economics and such of the Fascist states is their defining, shared feature, and that what you have brought up has been used by countless non-Fascist and even non-totalitarian states, whereas the key aspects of Fascist philosophy outlined are consistently found among every Fascist state, with the exact combination scarcely seen outside of them. Ergo, the "pattern of achieving and maintaining power" cannot be considered myth + violence, simple economics (privatization continues to be a phenomena not unique to Fascism) or totalitarianism, and one must look of every major aspect of Fascist society and how they have been used.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23806 on: October 02, 2018, 10:52:37 am »

Ahh, but the expansionism that is seen as necessary to fascism, (the "struggle" that mussolini mentions in his doctrine, footnote 4) is ideological, not necessarily physical.  In this context, the insistence on enforcing left ideology on an unwilling world (such as with "spreading western values" in places like the Middle East) would apply.

Spoiler: footnote 4 (click to show/hide)

Which again, kinda torpedoes the thing I find objectionable, which is your assertion that it must defacto be ultraconservative.


The need to create a mythic past is somewhat elaborated on in footnote 3, which expresses a need to create as close to a religious conviction of purpose as is possible.

Spoiler: footnote 3 (click to show/hide)

This fixation on creation of a downright 'spiritual' mission (be it supremacy, or 'equality', as my example used) is necessary for fascism, at least according to the Italian.

The need for the rejection of the individual, and the acceptance of rule by the state for the common good of all men, is also a feature of Fascism, which was presented in my example. (Mr Smith is not permitted to refuse to be a Nurse.)  The rejection of any conception of a utopia is a bit at odds with a Leftist version though, I will admit-- however, it is important to stress that there is a difference between leftism, and liberalism.  Liberals are who actively seek a utopic outcome, Leftists seek a global, universal doctrine. In that capacity, left-based fascism remains a reality, especially if it thinks it cannot acheive its ends peacefully.

Quote from: The doctrine of Fascism, excerpt
REJECTION OF INDIVIDUALISM AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE STATE

Fascism is therefore opposed to all individualistic abstractions based on eighteenth century materialism; and it is opposed to all Jacobinistic utopias and innovations. It does not believe in the possibility of "happiness" on earth as conceived by the economistic literature of the XVIIIth century, and it therefore rejects the theological notion that at some future time the human family will secure a final settlement of all its difficulties. This notion runs counter to experience which teaches that life is in continual flux and in process of evolution. In politics Fascism aims at realism; in practice it desires to deal only with those problems which are the spontaneous product of historic conditions and which find or suggest their own solutions (9). Only by entering in to the process of reality and taking possession of the forces at work within it, can man act on man and on nature (10).


For completeness, footnotes 9 and 10.

Spoiler: oblig (click to show/hide)


Do i *really* need to go through the entire Doctrine, and tick off every single box to sate your demand?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 11:03:00 am by wierd »
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George_Chickens

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23807 on: October 02, 2018, 11:07:03 am »

I can definitely see where you're arguing from at this point, but I reckon it's best we stop before this derail gets any further. as it has the potential to go on for an extremely long time and stifle the thread topic.

Back on topic, threats are flying between Russia and the USA and there have been some concerning changes within the state department.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23808 on: October 02, 2018, 11:11:30 am »

You know, the whole discussion reminds me of the horseshoe theory since both of you are talking about far-right and far-left totalitarian stuff, however, a better visualization might be a 3d version of the four quadrant plot that is so often used. Or maybe a sphere.

I can definitely see where you're arguing from at this point, but I reckon it's best we stop before this derail gets any further. as it has the potential to go on for an extremely long time and stifle the thread topic.


Yeah, further discussion would probably be better fit for a 'political philosophy' thread.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23809 on: October 02, 2018, 11:22:45 am »

Bay12:  Where the suggestion to probe the limits of Godwin's Law is a serious suggestion. :P

I honestly do think it should be discussed, and do agree that this thread is not the ideal vehicle-- but seriously, that is like the most toxic subject ever to seriously discuss. How the hell would you even NAME that thread!?  LOL
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George_Chickens

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23810 on: October 02, 2018, 11:25:09 am »

I can only imagine the abject horror such a thread would unleash into the world. Once you open a thread like that, you never go back to being normal.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23811 on: October 02, 2018, 11:32:14 am »

I honestly do think it should be discussed, and do agree that this thread is not the ideal vehicle-- but seriously, that is like the most toxic subject ever to seriously discuss. How the hell would you even NAME that thread!?  LOL

The Pathos Memorial Bantacular Nazistravaganza Flamewar Thread?

Note:I am not serious.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23812 on: October 02, 2018, 11:35:04 am »

I can start one if y'all want. I don't mind learning the sanity-blasting unknowledge.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23813 on: October 02, 2018, 11:39:05 am »

It's not the sanity blasting unknowledge, it is that the subject has such........ Baggage.

It is near impossible to coolly discuss a philosophy that openly endorsed, and philosophically demanded, the destruction of millions of people in the way that it did.  Such discussion invokes anger even today.  The topic is too hot to discuss really.  That is why Godwin's Law is a thing. As soon as a connection to nazis or hitler appear, all constructive conversation ends, and the bickering and anger begin.


The fact that it is too hot to rationally discuss in the open is one of the reasons why Nazism, as a historical thing, is so nebulous in the public eye-- and why I feel that it really does need to be discussed (especially since dangerous ideations, like "it is ultraconservative" are prevalent), however, the world really is not ..... ready... for that discussion.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23814 on: October 02, 2018, 11:45:12 am »

I can work the lock button and I have no pony in the race as it were. Though the optics of user Hanslanda opening a Nazi discussion thread might be too much for even my rakish charm to overcome.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23815 on: October 02, 2018, 11:49:04 am »

I wasn't actually thinking about that part and that's a good point. I suppose the best place for such a thread would be someplace with strong and 24/7 moderation, but such moderation would inevitably get accused of playing favorites.

I can work the lock button and I have no pony in the race as it were. Though the optics of user Hanslanda opening a Nazi discussion thread might be too much for even my rakish charm to overcome.

I think it'd quickly become too much for Toady One.
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George_Chickens

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23816 on: October 02, 2018, 11:54:53 am »

I really, really do not think such a topic is in the best interests of the forum. Not only is it extremely flame war prone, it also has the issue of the people it may attract. Threads on controversial topics like that tend to attract, uh, 'outsiders' with very strong opinions on the topic who will join solely to spread them.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23817 on: October 02, 2018, 12:03:53 pm »

"The REAL nazis aren't the guys calling for genocide of non-whites while wearing nazi unforms and calling themselves nazis, it's the SJWs complaining about not having enough safe spaces on college campuses."
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23818 on: October 02, 2018, 12:05:46 pm »

And other such inflammations, yes.

A cool and rational discussion of what fascism *IS*, based on its original source material, and how it might apply to modern variations on the thematic elements it is comprised of, is a worthwhile endeavor, however, the world is not ready for that.

I agree with George on this. It would test the very limits of this community to try it, and I shudder to think of the consequences.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #23819 on: October 02, 2018, 12:09:32 pm »

Not to whip back 3 pages, but the points after I last posted relevant to my last post were informative and logical and the more I learn about Kavanaugh the more I'm on board with him not being a good choice.
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