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[scriver]

After brief peruse of Wikipedia to refresh my memory, I do indeed was wrong about the early Sejm electing rulers. However the earlier traditional assemblies of the Poles, the Wieces, which the Sejm was developed from, did elect kings.

[SaberToothTiger]

Wiece were over by the time of christianisation, which either eradicated old traditions or adapted them for their own use. Wiece (plural of wiec) were additionally an early tribal thing that was ended when feudalism came into Poland.

[Rolan7]

Yeah, but if we're being picky and saying "it's not a democracy unless everybody is allowed to vote", Athens weren't democratic either, the US wasn't a democracy until whenever women and/or black people were allowed to vote (whichever was layest) and Switzerland wasn't a democracy until like the 90's when the last Canton gave women suffrage. Would I call them a modern democracy? Of course not. Were they democratic systems of their time? Yes, I would say so.

Women's suffrage came much later than racial suffrage, for the record.  Also felons can't vote today (not sure if that's always true, but eh)

I was going to be extra-picky about the definition of democracy, but the US *is* a representative democracy I guess.  Emphasis on the "representative".  Which is for the best - holding referendums on every important issue *sounds* nice, but some decisions should be left to motivated professionals.

Now we just need a system of electing professionals who are motivated by the good of the nation, rather than a popularity contest whose winners are allowed to be subsidized by lobbies...

[EnigmaticHat]

Also this is your timely reminder that kings have been democratically elected for longer than they have been inherited. Nothing prevents monarchies from being democratic! Well, except the outvoted monarch, possibly...

Which monarchs are you refering to here?

I'm curious on this too.

In the majority of Europe's history, particularly the non-mediterranean western, northern, and eastern bits, kings were elected. Inheriting titles is a late, medieval custom, which likely grew into place at the same time as land titles grew from appointment to inheritance status. A few examples off the top if my head; Queen Margareta of Denmark and Norway was elected queen of Sweden, thereby forming the Kalmar Union. Gustav Vasa, who led the rebellion against the Danish king in 1520-something, was the last elected king of Sweden. In England, William the Bastard invaded the country and became the Conqueror because the Angles had elected Harold Godwinson* instead of him. Polish kings also used to be elected, and (though I cannot recall the name) their modem parliament is still named after their old election assembly.

In general, this all harks back to tribal customs and the propensity for tribes to form democratic and semi-democratic  government structures instead of the tyrannical might-makes-right barbararchies they are often portrayed as in popular culture. In places where the tribal customs remained stronger for a longer time, such as in the North, these democratic systems also remained in power longer.

*(lol autocorrupt wants his name to be Harold Cocaine)

Those are not the first kings.  China is over 4k years old and has not had democratic elections at any point in that time.  There's also the Assyrian Empire, the Romans, the Mayans, the Egyptians, probably several others I don't know off the top of my head.  And the ancient Greeks, since the only city state to be democratic was Athens for a short period of their history and they elected a council not a king.

[Trekkin]

Now we just need a system of electing professionals who are motivated by the good of the nation, rather than a popularity contest whose winners are allowed to be subsidized by lobbies...

And what, precisely, does an election that is not a popularity contest look like systemically?

Other than a rigged election, of course.

[scriver]

Those are not the first kings.  China is over 4k years old

lolwhat are you going completely loony EH. What has that to do with anything I said?

[Trekkin]

Those are not the first kings.  China is over 4k years old

lolwhat are you going completely loony EH. What has that to do with anything I said?

He's pointing out that claiming elective monarchies generally predate inherited monarchies is Eurocentric, given all the places in the world where that was not the case.

[scriver]

In the majority of Europe's history, particularly the non-mediterranean western, northern, and eastern bits,

I guess talking about European history is Eurocentric, true

[EnigmaticHat]

You didn’t specify.  You just said elective monarchies came before inherited ones.  I was listing inherited monarchies that are old.

If we’re talking about Europe there’s the Greek city-states, those had inherited kings.

[Rolan7]

Now we just need a system of electing professionals who are motivated by the good of the nation, rather than a popularity contest whose winners are allowed to be subsidized by lobbies...

And what, precisely, does an election that is not a popularity contest look like systemically?

Other than a rigged election, of course.

Yeah, I wasn't sarcastically hinting at a better system.  I don't have an answer.
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others", after all.

I guess the British House of Lords?  Though I remember very little about that.
The concept of "statemen", leaders who care about the nation above themselves, is very old though.  We used to have a lot more of them in government, but ideals seem to struggle against well-funded campaigns.

tldr; Campaign finance reform, duh.

[Teneb]

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others", after all.

I really dislike this saying because it implies that we should just accept a shitty system rather than trying to create a better one.

[scriver]

You didn’t specify.

Really?

In the majority of Europe's history, particularly the non-mediterranean western, northern, and eastern bits,

Those are not the first kings.  China is over 4k years old and has not had democratic elections at any point in that time.  There's also the Assyrian Empire, the Romans, the Mayans, the Egyptians, probably several others I don't know off the top of my head.  And the ancient Greeks, since the only city state to be democratic was Athens for a short period of their history and they elected a council not a king.

[Teneb]

You didn’t specify.

Really?

In the majority of Europe's history, particularly the non-mediterranean western, northern, and eastern bits,

Those are not the first kings.  China is over 4k years old and has not had democratic elections at any point in that time.  There's also the Assyrian Empire, the Romans, the Mayans, the Egyptians, probably several others I don't know off the top of my head.  And the ancient Greeks, since the only city state to be democratic was Athens for a short period of their history and they elected a council not a king.

An european monarchy derail in my freedom-loving, democratic ameripol thread?! Say it ain't so!

[scriver]

Well, I am sorry for causing the derail, but it is one of my favourite nits to pick.

[Kagus]

Anyone catch the Bettie Scott hilarity in Detroit?

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2018/08/16/detroit-rep-bettie-cook-scott-on-asian-opponent-dont-vote-for-the-ching-chong

For anyone wondering.