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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4241326 times)

Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22530 on: August 12, 2018, 03:41:37 pm »

Quote from: Donald Trump
I condemn all acts of violence!

This message seems a tad disingenuous coming from Mr Fire and Fury.
It's not violence when he's doing it. It's Red-Blooded American Justice *eagle screech*!
So, this represents Trump flip-flopping on his “both sides were violent/fucking white nationalists/there were good people on both sides” thing again, then? It’s interesting that the man who is s’posed to come up with the message really can’t stay on message.
That's where you're wrong though... Trump exists in quantum political space, allowing him to simultaneously hold and express mutually opposed ideas without forming a paradox or diluting the sincerity of any such belief. Just ask one of his constituents.

Coast Guard Gang strikes again.
I found out during the last election cycle here in Norway that we actually have a "Coast Guard Party". Their primary platforms include raising funding for the Coast Guard.

And... That's about it.

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22531 on: August 12, 2018, 03:51:01 pm »

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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Dorsidwarf

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22532 on: August 12, 2018, 04:20:07 pm »

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Quote from: Rodney Ootkins
Everything is going to be alright

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22533 on: August 12, 2018, 04:23:54 pm »

It’s only been, what, 8 and a half years? That’s a few days, if you consider the grand scale of billions of years worth of potential days that have already passed and are still to come.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22534 on: August 12, 2018, 05:05:13 pm »


People who like the idea of a space force:
- The Army and Navy, who will see the Air Force knocked down a peg.
- Gamer Bros
- Sexless STEM people
- People who like everything Trump does
- People who are likely to get picked by Trump to run the Space Force
- Potential new military suppliers who will get the first chance to sell to the novice Space Force requisition officers
- People who don't know much about the military or space, but are afraid of foreigners

People who dislike the idea of a space force:
- The Air Force
- NASA
- All other international space organizations
- Fiscal conservatives who actually give a damn
- Liberals


When I did a research paper on PAROS and US militarization-of-space policy, I found that it was somewhat backwards regarding the existing branches. Army, Navy and Marines (and presumably Coast Guard) WANT the US to sign onto PAROS and keep space a demilitarized zone because they are incredibly dependent on satellite-based resources and would prefer those not get shot down in the middle of a knife fight.

The Air Force was the only branch in favor, though that was with the idea that the Air Force would be the one running the show. I doubt they'd be as excited about a separate branch getting the job. So I think you can reliably say that NO branch of the Armed Forces supports the concept of Space Force.

You're the expert, then. I was just spitballing. I think it might be necessary to break it down by rank -- officers are probably more educated but also more committed to the organization than a private is.

Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 05:08:33 pm by smjjames »
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22535 on: August 12, 2018, 06:22:12 pm »


People who like the idea of a space force:
- The Army and Navy, who will see the Air Force knocked down a peg.
- Gamer Bros
- Sexless STEM people
- People who like everything Trump does
- People who are likely to get picked by Trump to run the Space Force
- Potential new military suppliers who will get the first chance to sell to the novice Space Force requisition officers
- People who don't know much about the military or space, but are afraid of foreigners

People who dislike the idea of a space force:
- The Air Force
- NASA
- All other international space organizations
- Fiscal conservatives who actually give a damn
- Liberals


When I did a research paper on PAROS and US militarization-of-space policy, I found that it was somewhat backwards regarding the existing branches. Army, Navy and Marines (and presumably Coast Guard) WANT the US to sign onto PAROS and keep space a demilitarized zone because they are incredibly dependent on satellite-based resources and would prefer those not get shot down in the middle of a knife fight.

The Air Force was the only branch in favor, though that was with the idea that the Air Force would be the one running the show. I doubt they'd be as excited about a separate branch getting the job. So I think you can reliably say that NO branch of the Armed Forces supports the concept of Space Force.

You're the expert, then. I was just spitballing. I think it might be necessary to break it down by rank -- officers are probably more educated but also more committed to the organization than a private is.

Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.
Wow, that's a shitty article. Ok, so let me give some back history here:

1. The PAROS treaty has been around in various draft versions since 2002, although the discussions in the UN as to what should go into such a treaty go back as far as the 1980s. With the fall of the Soviet Union, however, America suddenly went "Wait....we're the only superpower now. You know what? Screw this, we're keeping our space superiority" and largely shit all over the process until the PAROS committee stopped meeting after 1994.

2. In 2002, China and Russia submitted a draft resolution (because the US was, at that time, undisputedly the lone space military power *and* we had a new administration who seemed to be ready and willing to bomb whoever the fuck they wanted).

3. In 2005, China and Russia got their resolution adopted (as a draft treaty) by the UN General Assembly, with only the US opposed and Israel abstaining. Russia also introduce a working paper which contained a verification regime, similar to how the IAEA operates with nuclear weapons. In 2006, this working paper was adopted, again with the US objecting and Israel abstaining.

4. 2007 (shortly before I did the research paper), China shot down one of their own satellites (an obsolete weather satellite) as a test. On paper, this was skirting the edge of violating the PAROS Treaty. Policy observers took it as a warning shot (literally) over the bow of the US, essentially saying, "Look motherfuckers...we can do this too. Sign the damn treaty, so we can all stop worrying about anti-satellite weapons." The US, unsurprisingly, didn't blink.

5. 2008, the US did something very similar to what they'd been criticizing China for -- we shot down one of our satellites (a failed spy sat) with an SM-3 interceptor missile.

6. 2008-2013: The US stops being quite such a dick about it, but we still abstained each year when a new draft of PAROS was brought up in the UNGA. But we were at least participating in the discussion again.

7. 2014: Deteriorating relations with Russia mean that the US is back to opposing Russian-introduced resolutions calling for a ban on space weapons. Georgia, Ukraine and Israel join the US.

8. 2014-2017: More or less gridlock as most of the world goes "Guys, could you please NOT?" and the US (and to a lesser extent China) are like "Oh, we so ARE." Russia has been the steadfast proponent of PAROS, presumably because they know they really can't afford that shit right now.

9. 2018: A large orange merkin who somehow gained both sentience and the US Presidency announces plans for the creation of "Space Force", which would seem to fuck the whole concept of PAROS right in the Uranus. Then again, it may wind up being largely the USAF Space Command with a bigger budget and its own uniforms, largely relegated to satellite tracking and monitoring. We lack any credible deployment platforms, any military on-orbit facilities, and certainly any capacity for manned warfare in space.


The general objection (diplomatically, at least) has been that it would be impossible to verify, rather than "we want to build Hypersonic Teenage Warheads". And most of the hypersonic craft in development would be to deliver conventional or nuclear warheads, rather than kinetic kill vehicles that that shitty article describes. KKV's have been studied and considered for decades (I read through an excruciatingly detailed RAND Corporation report on them), but were determined to be largely boondoggles -- yes, you get an earth-shattering kaboom, but for the cost of development and maintenance, you could get a lot more of them the old-fashioned way.

There's also the diplomatic problem that nobody likes it very much when you have orbiting death satellites over their heads, even if you claim it's for peaceful uses.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22536 on: August 12, 2018, 06:23:22 pm »


Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.

No, you misread that. It's the USA doing the hypersonic rocket tests, and they're citing that the other guys are making lasers and jamming devices.

Quote from: General John Hyten, the head of US Strategic Command
"They've been building weapons, testing weapons, building weapons to operate from the Earth in space, jamming weapons, laser weapons, and they have not kept it secret."

The difference is, the USA's hypersonic rockets are a way of delivering a physical payload such as nuclear warheads so quickly that there's not enough warning to respond. It's a first-strike weapon. Whereas satellite-deployed jamming systems or lasers are more plausible in an anti-missile defensive role. A space-borne "death star" laser is preposterous in anything like the near future. Wherever the USA deploys lasers you'll note that it's almost always about anti-missile defense. There's no engineering reason to think the logic from the Russians and Chinese on the practical uses of lasers would be any different.

Fundamentally, the USA doesn't like the other side having "jamming weapons, laser weapons" because such weapons neutralize the nuclear threat from the USA, reducing the USA's international bargaining position. In other words, the USA is more worried that China and Russia could stop a US nuke, rather than the risk that China and Russia could nuke everything themselves.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 06:33:28 pm by Reelya »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22537 on: August 12, 2018, 06:39:04 pm »

Both Russia and China have been publicly developing the exact same hypersonic strike vehicles. Russia claims that some versions are already entering service.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22538 on: August 12, 2018, 07:22:45 pm »

Russia has had examples of hypersonic rockets since the 80s. The big thing now is the "boost glide" (EDIT: little confusion. It's similar to a boost glide manuever, but apparently not commonly called that. Back to your regularly scheduled post) delivery vehicles. Attached to a traditional ballistic missile, it gives the payload great speed and opportunity to manuever as it comes in over its target.

The worry with the hypersonic weapons isn't so much that there won't be warning, but that the missile defense weapons currently available won't be able to keep up with them to intercept them. The cruise missiles will still be trackable and relatively short range. The ballistic missile weapons will be trackable from launch as they are today, just with slightly less knowledge of where their target might be.

It's slightly worrying, but in the end it's really just setting the MAD doctrine back on balance. It's been a couple of decades now where the US had a slight edge in missile defense that made the other nuclear powers nervous. This is just overcoming that defense and putting things back to even. Presumably at least. No telling what either side is hiding, just what we're being shown publicly. And for the moment, I doubt anyone has any of the weapons in significant numbers. At least not numbers enough to replace their current nuclear triad delivery methods whole hog.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 07:43:43 pm by sluissa »
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22539 on: August 12, 2018, 07:50:03 pm »

Fundamentally, the USA doesn't like the other side having "jamming weapons, laser weapons" because such weapons neutralize the nuclear threat from the USA, reducing the USA's international bargaining position. In other words, the USA is more worried that China and Russia could stop a US nuke, rather than the risk that China and Russia could nuke everything themselves.
Being able to stop US nukes means China and Russia COULD nuke everything themselves.  "Star Wars" anti-nuke measures are very dangerous because they potentially destroy the "mutual" part of Mutually Assured Destruction.  That's why everyone got really worried when we bragged about working on it.

Of course, it's not black and white.  All three countries have defenses against nuclear weapons, but they're far short of perfect (related:  All the tensions about overseas military bases, such as in Cuba).  It does make disarmament a trickier proposal, though.  The moment you can't threaten "destruction", because they're too shielded for your reduced armament, there's a real risk that they'll take the shot and deal with the... fallout.
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22540 on: August 12, 2018, 09:14:02 pm »

Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.
Wow, that's a shitty article. [...]
"Image credit: YouTube" :P
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22541 on: August 12, 2018, 09:59:20 pm »

Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.
Wow, that's a shitty article. [...]
"Image credit: YouTube" :P

To be honest, I did simply type in PAROS treaty and clicked the most recent article talking about the US rejecting it.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22542 on: August 12, 2018, 11:02:32 pm »

Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.
Wow, that's a shitty article. [...]
"Image credit: YouTube" :P

To be honest, I did simply type in PAROS treaty and clicked the most recent article talking about the US rejecting it.
Yeah, I wasn't faulting you. I've actually seen that article on several sites in the last couple of days. It's just that it's so poorly written that I had to clarify things.

Like "No, Trump is not going to have Space Force using hyperspace missiles to 'Holdo Manuever' our enemies."  ::)
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22543 on: August 12, 2018, 11:31:26 pm »

Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.
Wow, that's a shitty article. [...]
"Image credit: YouTube" :P

To be honest, I did simply type in PAROS treaty and clicked the most recent article talking about the US rejecting it.
Yeah, I wasn't faulting you. I've actually seen that article on several sites in the last couple of days. It's just that it's so poorly written that I had to clarify things.

Like "No, Trump is not going to have Space Force using hyperspace missiles to 'Holdo Manuever' our enemies."  ::)

It's very possible that's what he THINKS is going to happen though.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22544 on: August 13, 2018, 12:07:24 am »

Yeah, the US refuses to sign the treaty (apparently citing hypersonic rocket tests). The Russians and Chinese have apparently signed it and are lambasting the US over it, however, the Chinese and Russians have been doing sheneinighans with sattelites and other things, so, the suspicion that others aren't abiding by the treaty is there.
Wow, that's a shitty article. [...]
"Image credit: YouTube" :P

To be honest, I did simply type in PAROS treaty and clicked the most recent article talking about the US rejecting it.
Yeah, I wasn't faulting you. I've actually seen that article on several sites in the last couple of days. It's just that it's so poorly written that I had to clarify things.

Like "No, Trump is not going to have Space Force using hyperspace missiles to 'Holdo Manuever' our enemies."  ::)

It's very possible that's what he THINKS is going to happen though.
"The Republic is very unfair to me, tried to rig the elections in favor of Crooked Leia Organa!! Contributed to the violence at Jakku, though were there very fine people on both sides! Also very unfair to my good friend, Supreme Leader Snoke. We are going to Make the Galaxy Great Again!"
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.
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