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[EnigmaticHat]

Modern woes.

Enjoyed the read overall, though there are some concepts that I don't necessarily agree with. Also gets particularly tiresome to read in the middle; ended up skimming a bit.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I suppose I should apologize for posting this in what is ultimately the wrong thread.

Some of those gigs sound like training for a neural net or similar program.  The bit where he's summarizing youtube videos and news articles is exactly what Microsoft or Google would do to improve their search engines.

[smjjames]

While I accept that dictators and arseholes are products of their society, there can be better and worse ones.  Sadly, your american system is so corrupt, right-wing and straight-up evil that if you killed Trump you would get someone no less evil but far less incompetent. Might be better though.

AKA Pence?

While you have a pont about someone no less evil but far less incompetent, please don't paint the US with such a damn large brush.

If Q did assassinate Trump, it would only make him a martyr. Ending an idiotic ideology is rarely as simple as killing it's leader.

It doesn't have to be an idiotic ideology, assassinations often create martyrs, especially if ideology surrounds the assassinated. Like say Jesus. Okay, Jesus wasn't assassinated per se, but he still became a martyr.

[Rowanas]

While I accept that dictators and arseholes are products of their society, there can be better and worse ones.  Sadly, your american system is so corrupt, right-wing and straight-up evil that if you killed Trump you would get someone no less evil but far less incompetent. Might be better though.

AKA Pence?

While you have a pont about someone no less evil but far less incompetent, please don't paint the US with such a damn large brush.

I will continue painting American politics with this brush until your system resembles something other than a particularly grim circle of hell.  Even your most left-wing candidates are still comically scrooge-esque and evil.  You guys argue over basic liberties that the civilised west long ago agreed should be protected and provided by the state, and your income equality between the most and least well-off is laughable, even amongst other arch-capitalist countries.  Scarcely is the a sector of American politics, whether it be religious, military, economic or foreign, that cannot be described as 100% pure grade-A completely fucking fucked.

[McTraveller]

You guys argue over basic liberties that the civilised west long ago agreed should be protected and provided by the state

I think maybe we have different definitions of what is a "civil liberty".

The US in general still has far more liberty than many other places. I spoke with someone from France for instance, and they surprised me with their comments.  Along the lines of "In France, the default for most things is 'it is forbidden'. In the US, the default is 'you can do it.' " 

Interestingly this was contrasted with their observation about how confusing and complicated the US health care system is compared to that in France.  And how our cheese is terrible, and when it's good it's ridiculously expensive (they were surprised that we have decent wine though).

Also, corruption in the US is generally limited only to the higher echelons of society; there is very little "consumer level" corruption. Generally you only get it from local power structures if at all - like small town permit approvals or something.  Anything larger than that is very rare and generally makes headlines.  It's really easy to find instances of public officials going to prison for corruption (mostly taking bribes to select a contractor or misusing public resources) here in the US.  We don't generally have corruption like "sorry you won't get power to your house unless you pay us extra" kind of stuff.

Now, that's not to say the US is the best at anything - but I really don't understand how people can look at the US and say it's "hell".  Unless maybe you're looking at specific urban areas and what makes international news which tends to focus on the sensational...

[ChairmanPoo]

Along the lines of "In France, the default for most things is 'it is forbidden'. In the US, the default is 'you can do it.' " 

This comment by itself doesn´t say very much.

We don't generally have corruption like "sorry you won't get power to your house unless you pay us extra" kind of stuff.

... I think you have a very weird and inaccurate view of how things work in Europe.

[smjjames]

Along the lines of "In France, the default for most things is 'it is forbidden'. In the US, the default is 'you can do it.' " 

This comment by itself doesn´t say very much.

We don't generally have corruption like "sorry you won't get power to your house unless you pay us extra" kind of stuff.

... I think you have a very weird and inaccurate view of how things work in Europe.

He didn't say that there was that kind of corruption in Europe, just gave an example of a type of corruption.

[misko27]

As always specify "Western Europe" or "Eastern Europe" when making these sorts of comparisons. In spite of the EU, Eastern Europe arguably has a lot more in common with the rest of Eastern Europe than their western EU comrades.

[Frumple]

[We don't generally have corruption like "sorry you won't get power to your house unless you pay us extra" kind of stuff.

Shit along those lines is pretty damn common, actually, from what I've seen. Usually not specifically re: basic utilities (though ware the poison and whatnot) and it's more "know the right person who you just happen to provide favors to or this shit will take forever and possibly cost you extra", but various low level bureaucracy and (breaking/bypassing the) law related shenanigans have it pop up pretty often.

Consumer level corruption largely amounts to stealing pens from work, but the next step up -- administration and elected local officials, mostly -- gets into all sorts of shite, particularly in less urban areas. The good ol' boy network is pretty bloody rotten.

[PTTG??]

You guys argue over basic liberties that the civilised west long ago agreed should be protected and provided by the state

I think maybe we have different definitions of what is a "civil liberty".

The US in general still has far more liberty than many other places. I spoke with someone from France for instance, and they surprised me with their comments.  Along the lines of "In France, the default for most things is 'it is forbidden'. In the US, the default is 'you can do it.' " 

Interestingly this was contrasted with their observation about how confusing and complicated the US health care system is compared to that in France.  And how our cheese is terrible, and when it's good it's ridiculously expensive (they were surprised that we have decent wine though).

Also, corruption in the US is generally limited only to the higher echelons of society; there is very little "consumer level" corruption. Generally you only get it from local power structures if at all - like small town permit approvals or something.  Anything larger than that is very rare and generally makes headlines.  It's really easy to find instances of public officials going to prison for corruption (mostly taking bribes to select a contractor or misusing public resources) here in the US.  We don't generally have corruption like "sorry you won't get power to your house unless you pay us extra" kind of stuff.

Now, that's not to say the US is the best at anything - but I really don't understand how people can look at the US and say it's "hell".  Unless maybe you're looking at specific urban areas and what makes international news which tends to focus on the sensational...

If you ignore all the stuff that makes the news, and all the stuff you don't know about because it doesn't make the news, then yeah, the US has no corruption.

[scriver]

Pretty sure if you look on the worldwide corruption status thingie you'll find the US more or less in the same area as non-Scandinavian Europe.

[Reelya]

Not really. There aren't anything similar to the American civil forfeiture abuses hitting western Europe as far as I know. In Europe, how the police behave is far more regulated than in the USA.

It's worth bringing up civil forfeiture in this context:

http://observer.com/2017/07/donald-trump-jeff-sessions-department-of-justice-civil-forfeiture/

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On July 19, the Department of Justice issued a policy directive that expands police and law enforcement agencies’ rights to seize property from people not charged with a crime. Attorney General Jeff Sessions signed an order to increase the practice, which aligns with his agenda of expanding the war on drugs. The federal program, known as equitable sharing, incentivizes law enforcement agencies to seize assets by allowing them to keep up to 80 percent of the funds they seize, providing a boost to their department’s budget. Despite some states banning this practice, Sessions’ directive will allow any state to funnel seized funds to the federal government, which it can then send back to the states, circumventing state laws in favor of federal laws.

Property seizure by law enforcement agencies has been a controversial issue across the country for years. It’s a widespread practice; between 2007 and 2016, the DEA seized $3.2 billion in assets. It circumvents due process in the criminal justice system by permitting law enforcement agencies to essentially steal from citizens under the presumption of probable cause. Because it results in police departments increasing their budgets, it’s a recipe for corruption and abuse.

In 2014, Forbes reported several cases in which police seized large sums of cash from citizens who were never charged with a crime or citation. In Nevada, Tan Nguyen filed a lawsuit to retrieve $50,000 that police confiscated from him during a traffic stop. He eventually received the money back, but he had to pay legal fees. In another case in Nevada, Ken Smith was given an ultimatum: Either be arrested in accordance with a warrant issued for a different Ken Smith or sign a waiver to hand over $13,800 he had in his vehicle after being stopped for speeding. In Virginia, Victor Luiz Guzman was pulled over by police who seized $28,500 in church donations he was transporting. In Georgia in 2013, Alda Gentile had $11,530 seized from her during at a traffic stop. The funds were later returned, but she said, “They made me feel like a criminal.” In 2013, The New Yorker reported that police threatened a Texas couple with having their children taken away from them if they didn’t forfeit $6,000 in cash they had on them to go buy a used car. These types of cash-for-freedom deals have reportedly been abused by police departments across the country.

In 2014 Forbes reported, “Twenty-five other states allow police to pocket all of the proceeds from civil forfeiture. Property owners must prove their innocence in civil forfeiture proceedings in 37 other states.”

I'll just quote the last bit outside the spoiler:

In 2013, The New Yorker reported that police threatened a Texas couple with having their children taken away from them if they didn’t forfeit $6,000 in cash they had on them to go buy a used car. These types of cash-for-freedom deals have reportedly been abused by police departments across the country.

In 2014 Forbes reported, “Twenty-five other states allow police to pocket all of the proceeds from civil forfeiture.

Things like this do not happen in England, Germany or France. There are also accounts of how said "confiscated" money is spent. Some of the cases include the police buying themselves kegs of beer and other fun things. They can take cash money from virtually anyone, on the basis that having cash is "suspicious" and there are no existing rules on how the money is spent.

[scriver]

Beats France, Ireland, Spain and Italy

[Reelya]

Beats France, Ireland, Spain and Italy

I don't think the Corruption Perceptions Index is always valid here. You're more likely to be robbed or killed by police in the USA than any of those nations.

The Corruption Perceptions Index also mixes in a lot of things into one linear metric, which isn't helpful. It's a lot different when people are concerned that politicians are taking kickbacks from property developers, compared to nations where police openly steal from regular people or take bribes.

[scriver]

Pointing out where the US stands on the International Corruption Index is perfectly valid response to you claiming the US in not in the same area as the non-Scandinavian European countries on the International Corruption Index.

[MrRoboto75]

Hey, the badge says, "Cash Bribes Only!"