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[sluissa]

If you WERE worried about the people committing suicide you'd be asking why they're doing it rather than how.

[Doomblade187]

Ruining others lives by committing suicide is a dick move, but so would walking out on them, moving across the country and never talking to them again.

It's all a matter of how you handle it. But once again, that's more context surrounding the choice, not the choice itself. When we're talking about the terminally ill or the elderly and infirm considering suicide, we're much more willing to accept that. Because they tend to talk about it before they do it. If I were in a bad marriage or had a bad relationship with family, but tried to make it work, and ultimately, after discussing it and considering it, decided the healthiest thing for me (and possibly everyone) was for me just to leave. Some people would even consider that the responsible thing to do. Many would be cheering me on.

You make good points, and I recognize some from the euthenasia activism movement.

Notably, you bring up talking about it beforehand. There should be some distinction here: I have had those close to me who have suicidal ideation talk to me about their desire to cease existing. Were they to go through with it, me and their friends would be absolutely devastated. When a senior or terminally ill person decides to end their life, part of what would in theory make the loss less tragic is that they have time to get those they care about to accept their choice and grieve in advance. By contrast, impulsive suicides don't give this advance grieving, and guns are very conducive to impulsive suicide.

If you WERE worried about the people committing suicide you'd be asking why they're doing it rather than how.

Family and friends do this. And PEOPLE STILL COMMIT SUICIDE.

EDIT: What I mean is that the efforts to recover from depression and mental illness are very hard to do. And many people do actually care about 'why"

[nenjin]

If you WERE worried about the people committing suicide you'd be asking why they're doing it rather than how.

Funny thing about people committing suicide: many do not seek help or tell anyone they have a problem until it's too late. We never suspected anything was wrong, and he never let on anything was wrong.

But thanks for essentially trying to say no one tried hard enough to stop him or understand his problem. And by thanks, I mean, what a complete asshole thing to say. You talk a lot about people's motives and assume they're just inventing what they believe for the sake of arguing with you. The fact you extend that to people we've lost in our lives like you have any FUCKING clue about it, so you can score some points in a gun control debate, is as scummy as you can be.

[Karnewarrior]

Yeah, I'm on board with anything that reduces impulsive suicide, which is very different from the kind of long-term suicides that Euthenasia evokes.

If you WERE worried about the people committing suicide you'd be asking why they're doing it rather than how.

Please don't be obtuse on purpose, Sluissa. People do do that, quite a bit actually. I was a cop - i.e. my role was only to prevent the suicide itself - and I received special training on why people commit suicide and how to recognize signs in others. Because there's a whole bunch of research on the topic, because people have been asking that question for a long fucking time.

Funnily enough, it led to the how, and gun suicide is one of the most common impulsive suicides. It's also a disturbingly common cause of death by accident, particularly in households with irresponsible gun owners and children.

Most of this could be prevented just by making gun registration easier to do and less easy to dodge (and mandatory if it's not already in your area); literally just a light vetting process will kill a LOT of bad problems with guns, no need to pull the heavy arms from woodsmen.

[sluissa]

If you WERE worried about the people committing suicide you'd be asking why they're doing it rather than how.

Funny thing about people committing suicide: many do not seek help or tell anyone they have a problem until it's too late. We never suspected anything was wrong, and he never let on anything was wrong.

But thanks for essentially trying to say no one tried hard enough to stop him or understand his problem. And by thanks, I mean, what a complete asshole thing to say. You talk a lot about people's motives and assume they're just inventing what they believe for the sake of arguing with you. The fact you extend that to people we've lost in our lives like you have any FUCKING clue about it is about as scummy as you can be.

That's because society has put a stigma on mental illness. Culture has made it hard to admit that having a problem is a thing and sometimes you need help to fix it. But at the same time society says that you don't have a choice out of it if that is your final decision. So if you do say you have a problem, you get that choice taken away. So sometimes it seems like if you WANT to make that choice then you need to do it quick with little warning.

Talking about it with family or friends does shit all when the problems are out of their control. It also does shit all when they are in fact the primary problem.

[smjjames]

Maybe we should change the subject? Getting a little personal there, nenjin and sluissa.

And yeah, we've certainly gone through the discussion on guns and keep coming more or less to a stalemate, kind of a microcosm of the national debate on guns.

[sluissa]

I wasn't the one calling anyone scum. But that's fine.

[Doomblade187]

I wasn't the one calling anyone scum. But that's fine.

Sluissa, your small post came off as a personal attack, and Nejinn was understandably upset. Hell, I was upset. If you weren't going for a personal attack, good, but it felt like one.

[nenjin]

I'm finished. sluissa can't debate in good faith so what is the point. Welcome to any attempt to talk about gun control.

[smjjames]

I wasn't the one calling anyone scum. But that's fine.

I never said anybody was calling anybody scum, I was just noticing that it was getting a bit testy between you and nenjin.

I wasn't the one calling anyone scum. But that's fine.

Sluissa, your small post came off as a personal attack, and Nejinn was understandably upset. Hell, I was upset. If you weren't going for a personal attack, good, but it felt like one.

To me, it didn't seem like a personal attack, but nenjin was understandably upset about it, which is why I interjected about changing topic as things were getting testy, though sluissa didn't continue the personal attack in their response.

I'm finished. sluissa can't debate in good faith so what is the point. Welcome to any attempt to talk about gun control.

Then lets change the subject Maybe about the G7 meeting coming up or the June 12th summit with Kim Jong Un.

[Wolfhunter107]

I just can't see that meeting ending well. The North Korean proclivity for screwing over negotiations is very well known, and with Trump thrown into the mix it gets even worse. I hope that something good comes of this, but I'm not counting on it.

[Trekkin]

I just can't see that meeting ending well. The North Korean proclivity for screwing over negotiations is very well known, and with Trump thrown into the mix it gets even worse. I hope that something good comes of this, but I'm not counting on it.

Not to mention Trump's said he's not prepping for it, and of course Bolton hasn't so much as mentioned it in a Cabinet-level context.

[smjjames]

I just can't see that meeting ending well. The North Korean proclivity for screwing over negotiations is very well known, and with Trump thrown into the mix it gets even worse. I hope that something good comes of this, but I'm not counting on it.

Not to mention Trump's said he's not prepping for it, and of course Bolton hasn't so much as mentioned it in a Cabinet-level context.

I was gonna mention it, but you beat me to it.

Kellyanne Conway said that preparations for it are 'intense' though, whatever that means, and yeah, with the whole winging it where they really shouldn't, theres real danger for things to screw up. He also says that it's more about attitude, which is fine, but he won't want to be caught flatfooted on something he doesn't know or get scammed by NK.

Sec. of State Pompeo is also saying that Kim indicated personally to Pompeo his willingness to denuclearize and understands the current model doesn't work. I'm skeptical about this simply due to the lack of trust (and that no way would he willingly give away the nukes), but if Kim is being honest here and actually follows through with it, I'd have to wonder what the heck big ephiphany he had that lead to the change in strategy.

[Dunamisdeos]

I'm really interested in you guys opinions on the upcoming summit. I have little to say myself on the subject, having done little research. I understand the primary goal is related to nuclear weapons and programs thereof.

Also, looks like they are having preliminary/preparatory talks in Finland?

[EnigmaticHat]

If you WERE worried about the people committing suicide you'd be asking why they're doing it rather than how.

Many people commit suicide because of clinical depression.  The best medical answer to clinical depression right now, antidepressants, can cause suicidal urges*.  Even if we improve the social factors that cause suicide and the meds get better.  To get so few people attempting suicide in the US that guns would have a negligible effect on it... that's not even worth talking about for at least 50 years.  The factors that cause people to commit suicide are too huge to be resolved quicker than that, and even 50 years is optimistic IMO.  Remember, to get the suicide rate low, you have to make the US school system not shit.  Do you think that's going to happen in our lifetimes?  Cause I don't, I personally think its going to get worse over time.

Its also worth pointing out that most people who attempt suicide are only doing so because of a temporary spike in bad emotions/life circumstances/suicidal urges.  If they survive, a couple years later they're probably going to look back and be grateful they failed.

*kinda, taking the meds statistically makes people less likely to commit suicide even considering the side effects.  But the current crop of meds is never going to reduce suicide rate in clinically depressed people to anything near 0%, and the number of people who have been diagnosed with clinical depression at least one in their lives is staggering in the US and rising for whatever reason.