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[Dorsidwarf]

Not sure what the point you're trying to make is then.

he.... said it in the second sentence of his post?

[EnigmaticHat]

Look at it like this: its one thing to say "you shouldn't punch Nazis in the face for being Nazis" AND "you shouldn't beat up Muslims just because some tiny percentage of them are terrorists."  Its a false equivalence, since one is a religion and the other is a political affiliation (and a hateful one at that), but at least there's a consistent ideology there.

However, people who were silent for a decade and a half of Muslim bashing, and people who are speaking out against "punch a nazi", are overlapping groups.  And that's pretty fucked up.  I mean, remember the ground Zero Mosque?  The people building that weren't even associated with the 9/11 attackers much less carrying out another attack and people freaked out.  Now that a known hate group is coming to carry out a second violent protest on the site of a terrorist attack, I'm eagerly awaiting that same outrage from conservatives...

[smjjames]

Wasn't the Ground Zero mosque more of a 'too soon' thing? I know there was a mosque that was proposed near Ground Zero and people freaked out over it, but I forget when it was.

[Reelya]

It wasn't that long ago, it was first mooted in 2009.

Also the details is that it was meant as an interfaith community center, similar to an existing Jewish one, no mosque as such, but with a "prayer space" for muslims. Ands while a prayer space is religious, without an imam it's no "mosque", any more than a Christian community space is a "church".

It's about two blocks from the WTC site, so you have a good two rows of skyscrapers in between it and Ground Zero.

Anyone who tells you "ground zero mosque" clearly wants you to imagine an actual mosque with minarets and a peaked dome right on the actual WTC site. They can't just back-pedal that with "well an islamic center several blocks away is basically the same thing", because it's clearly not what they were trying to get you to believe.

[EnigmaticHat]

Also more to the point being Muslim doesn't imply any kind of support of complacency with the 9/11 attacks.  Being a neo-nazi automatically makes you in support of violence.  That's kind of the point of it.

Anyway, the main thrust of what I'm saying isn't about Muslims or Nazis, its about our political conversation.  I wrote up a giant post about this but its already been said.  There's a double standard as to what constitutes foul play between the left and the right.  I've heard people on this very forum try to downplay, for example, violence against trans people by saying that it happens no less than average.  And then we've got people digging up every example of how neo-nazis have been punched openly but not killed, and law enforcement actually did something about it.  And its like... I would feel a little more receptive to this, if at least one person who had downplayed violence committed by hate groups in the past isn't one of the people who's defended neo-nazis in the present.  Not naming names but some of y'all aren't nearly as moderate as you claim to be and you should stop pretending so you can genuinely participate in the conversation and say what you mean.

[sluissa]

I actually see no difference between your two examples, EnigmaticHat.

Both examples would have people call for violence against the group as a whole for the crimes of a single one, and both sides would have their defenders because "Not all...".

I can't even say that the Muslims are more innocent here because you've conveniently left out what it was they were protesting.

[smjjames]

I can't even say that the Muslims are more innocent here because you've conveniently left out what it was they were protesting.

Exactly, because the context matters. I assumed Enigmatichat was using the context of protesting the confederate statue, given that he was responding to and made it the exact same situation by changing some names.

[EnigmaticHat]

I was saying "if muslims had done the same things Unite the Right has done and is doing, people would react in a totally different way."  Hence why I didn't refer to a specific incident.

[sluissa]

It's a really awkward image in my head thinking of Muslims protesting the removal of Confederate statues.

And I still see no difference. You'd probably get DIFFERENT groups attacking and defending, but I feel like the ratios attacking or defending would be more or less comparable.

If anything I'd expect to see Muslims treated less harshly because once you start branding people as Nazis it almost becomes indefensible from a traditional argument standpoint. (Thus Godwin's Law)

[hector13]

Godwin's Law has a lot to answer for.

[Max™]

If anything I'd expect to see Muslims treated less harshly because once you start branding people as Nazis it almost becomes indefensible from a traditional argument standpoint. (Thus Godwin's Law)

If anything I'd expect to see Muslims treated less harshly because once you start branding people as Nazis

once you start branding people as Nazis

Ahem, it seems important again to point out that this is not a case of people being wrongly branded as nazis, has nothing to do with those situations, and should not be implied that it will lead to those sorts of situations.

This is a case of people wearing the gear, doing the salutes, chanting the bullshit, and in general acting like actual fucking nazis. They may say they're "just white supremacists" in public, though many do actually straight up own the nazi name now, but this is actual nazis running around with torches.

If there is a mistake here, then the onus is on them to come out and say "hey, though we were acting like nazis and even calling ourselves nazis at various points, we don't actually want to eradicate non-white people, and think hitler was a dick" otherwise fuck 'em all.

[Trekkin]

Ahem, it seems important again to point out that this is not a case of people being wrongly branded as nazis, has nothing to do with those situations, and should not be implied that it will lead to those sorts of situations.

It will, though. Every time you decide some group is 100% okay to punch because they're a member of that group, you will get people coming forward with all sorts of evidence that everyone they don't like is punchable. It's just how people work. Everyone divides the world into people they like and people they don't, and then they scramble to prove why the former are "objectively" better than the latter and their stupid myopic prejudices are better than everyone else's. Sometimes it's skin color and gender and all the rest of it. Sometimes it's a hazy version of national pride. Sometimes it's garbage science about "alphas" and "betas." Whatever it is, though, if you give people a way to make it seem okay they will contort their beliefs to match.

The day we decide it's okay to punch Nazis is the day everyone in the country starts to adopt a fuzzier definition of Nazism. Maybe swastika armbands will become Antifa's version of drop guns. Maybe we all just get a little less careful about verifying just who was at the rallies before we demand they be fired. Maybe we just demand people be fired because they look like they probably wanted to go.

Or maybe this becomes the first time in human history we didn't give in to the intoxicating rush of self-righteousness. But somehow I doubt it.

[Max™]

Ok so is it still ok to punch the ones that say "I'm a fucking nazi" or does that hit the same slippery slope?

[Trekkin]

Ok so is it still ok to punch the ones that say "I'm a fucking nazi" or does that hit the same slippery slope?

Under what circumstances would you like people to accept "I heard him say he's a nazi" as a reason for punching you?

People who want to punch you will hear what lets them do so, regardless of whether or not you say it.

[Max™]

Everything is getting recorded nowadays.

Very few people actually want to go through with punching someone for any reason.

Someone is recorded chanting nazi bullshit and telling people they're a nazi, don't defend them.

Once people stop saying they're nazis, then we can worry about it getting used to justify shit, perhaps?