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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4169289 times)

scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11280 on: August 21, 2017, 04:26:50 am »

I love the double think of a country built on states seceding from another country forbidding states from seceding from their own. "God gave us the right to rebel, but not the right to rebel against us!"

Or, alternatively, "Do you want the Critical Period again? Because this is how we get the Critical Period again." America had seven years of its federal government being essentially optional, and it sucked so much that the Federalists resorted to shenanigans of questionable legality to replace the Articles of Confederation as rapidly as possible with something that established an actual government.

Even if you're willing to pretend that the secession crisis was not about slavery, letting the slave states go uncontested was never an option. The precedent it would have established would have made the federal government optional again; if states could leave whenever they wanted, then they would essentially have veto power anyway. America tried that once and nearly fell apart. It's not doublethink to not want to try that again.

I don't see why I have to pretend that the civil war wasn't about slavery to see the irony of the situation. I mean, I see the double think of the South demanding the freedom and right to self govern over the privilege to keep people from being free, but unlike the first there's not many people in this thread exhibiting that idea so there's no need to post about it.
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Telgin

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11281 on: August 21, 2017, 09:23:17 am »

There are many things wrong with America since FDR's devastating New Deal: minimum wage, terrible labor laws, income tax, VAT, social security regulated by the state, and newer abominations like Obamacare. Trump does not address most of them: he is anti-Obamacare, but will not get rid of income tax altogether, he just wants to lower it. Good enough, but that's not really a revolutionary change. In most aspects he is the same as his predecessors for decades, more government, more spending, more national debt. The only thing in which he is different is being anti climate change, which might just doom our planet.

Spoiler: What (click to show/hide)

In all seriousness, I'm honestly surprised to see such a libertarian viewpoint mixed with care for the environment.
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11282 on: August 21, 2017, 09:55:34 am »

Big-L Libertarian, I'm also a libertarian in the "anarchist and socialist who is a big fan of liberty" sense and find most of that to be nonsense or abhorrent.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11283 on: August 21, 2017, 10:05:11 am »

Quote
Even if you're willing to pretend that the secession crisis was not about slavery

It wasn't JUST about Slavery. You can even see it in their speeches about slavery the other little tidbits and issues that popped up.

Though it was more about Slavery for the South than it was for the North according to one teacher (and another pessimist suggests the North's aversion to Slavery had more to do with the fact that they had no benefit for it... But that person also is a rather "True Altruism doesn't exist") I had.

Though... I do wonder if the Civil war would have happened even without Slavery being on the docket, or if it just was the catalyst that brought it about sooner.

There certainly were some other issues involved (preserving the Union was a big one), but the problem is that Lost Causers want you to think that it wasn't about slavery at all. Remove slavery and you remove the core reason why those states rebelled.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11284 on: August 21, 2017, 10:55:36 am »

Quote
Even if you're willing to pretend that the secession crisis was not about slavery

It wasn't JUST about Slavery. You can even see it in their speeches about slavery the other little tidbits and issues that popped up.

Though it was more about Slavery for the South than it was for the North according to one teacher (and another pessimist suggests the North's aversion to Slavery had more to do with the fact that they had no benefit for it... But that person also is a rather "True Altruism doesn't exist") I had.

Though... I do wonder if the Civil war would have happened even without Slavery being on the docket, or if it just was the catalyst that brought it about sooner.

There certainly were some other issues involved (preserving the Union was a big one), but the problem is that Lost Causers want you to think that it wasn't about slavery at all. Remove slavery and you remove the core reason why those states rebelled.

The whole thing was a powder keg, but there were some proposals that potentially could have resolved things more peacefully. Some even gained some traction. However most of them would have preserved slavery in one form or another. By the time the confederacy was formed and it wasn't simply a bunch of individual states who decided to secede on their own, most of the negotiation options were unlikely to pass.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11285 on: August 21, 2017, 11:08:38 am »

I love the double think of a country built on states seceding from another country forbidding states from seceding from their own. "God gave us the right to rebel, but not the right to rebel against us!"

Or, alternatively, "Do you want the Critical Period again? Because this is how we get the Critical Period again." America had seven years of its federal government being essentially optional, and it sucked so much that the Federalists resorted to shenanigans of questionable legality to replace the Articles of Confederation as rapidly as possible with something that established an actual government.

Even if you're willing to pretend that the secession crisis was not about slavery, letting the slave states go uncontested was never an option. The precedent it would have established would have made the federal government optional again; if states could leave whenever they wanted, then they would essentially have veto power anyway. America tried that once and nearly fell apart. It's not doublethink to not want to try that again.

I don't see why I have to pretend that the civil war wasn't about slavery to see the irony of the situation. I mean, I see the double think of the South demanding the freedom and right to self govern over the privilege to keep people from being free, but unlike the first there's not many people in this thread exhibiting that idea so there's no need to post about it.

I didn't mean that. I was referring to the standard neo-Confederate nonsense that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, everyone involved was an opponent of slavery, and the only reason the War happened was because of nebulous, generic "states' rights" issues...which happened to concern the legality of slavery.

My point was twofold: one, that given the issue at hand, the precise legality of secession was a secondary concern. Some kind of armed conflict regarding the keeping of slaves was inevitable, probably by the mid-1850s and certainly by Buchanan's presidency; as has been noted up-thread, it was economically vital to the South and intolerable to the North. This was pre-Posse Comitatus Act, as well; at some point, Northern soldiers were going to be shooting at armed Southern rebels who refused to peacefully release their slaves. Secession just made it an actual war instead of a series of police actions. The Crittenden-Johnson Resolution was a transparent sop to Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, and to a miniscule degree Delaware; secession was a useful way to frame the conflict, but it was never the reason for the war, which would have happened in some form or other regardless.

But let's indulge the folks with Confederate flags hanging on their walls and pretend that this was all about "states' rights" in general. It's still not necessarily hypocritical to assert, on a purely practical basis, that the Revolution produced a (barely) tenable political entity that slave state secession would not. There was no explicit Constitutional proscription against secession, true, but actually letting the South go peacefully would have established a precedent that returned a level of authority to the individual states not seen since the Articles of Confederation and, in fact if not in name, reestablished the vetocracy the Articles had devolved into.

In other words, no matter what reasons the South had offered to justify secession, letting any state go would have returned America to a frankly awful system of government -- and that precedent would stand for the seceding states, too. Whether that's hypocrisy or irony or learning from past mistakes is up to you, I suppose.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11286 on: August 21, 2017, 12:58:11 pm »

We created a system that was convenient for those in power knowing that the options were either to perpetually enslave a portion of the populace or fight a war or some kind, and we were fine with it until it became comfortable enough for those in power to care.

Humanity is an awful race of awful people who type with one hand about how important it is to fight the good fight and how great we are for pulling down statues and fighting supremacy while eating a banana with the other hand that was picked by a man who works for room and board and lives on his boss's property.

Or as I've witnessed, a full restaurant full of locals who love the cheap food cooked by people who can't speak English and live under the abovementioned conditions.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11287 on: August 21, 2017, 01:08:54 pm »

We created a system that was convenient for those in power knowing that the options were either to perpetually enslave a portion of the populace or fight a war or some kind, and we were fine with it until it became comfortable enough for those in power to care.

Humanity is an awful race of awful people who type with one hand about how important it is to fight the good fight and how great we are for pulling down statues and fighting supremacy while eating a banana with the other hand that was picked by a man who works for room and board and lives on his boss's property.

Or as I've witnessed, a full restaurant full of locals who love the cheap food cooked by people who can't speak English and live under the abovementioned conditions.

So we shouldn't tear down monuments to traitors erected by racists because of whataboutism?
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Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11288 on: August 21, 2017, 01:12:06 pm »

can we stop using whataboutism incorrectly for fucks sake.

whataboutism is pointing to something wrong the other person is doing and saying "you're a hypocrite so i don't have to listen."

calling it whataboutism doesn't change the fact that you're a fucking hypocrite. nobody in this thread is saying "we shouldn't take down statues because we're all complicit" but people pretend they are so they don't have to own up to it.

personally i just own it, not like i care about african children anyway.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11289 on: August 21, 2017, 01:22:32 pm »

I wasn't talking about whether or not to pull down statues, I was talking about slavery still existing in America and how easy it is to ignore.

Say, for instance, by focusing on the part where I said statue instead of "we are supporting slavery and here's how".

::EDIT:: Now I'm going to draw a parallel and wonder how easy it was to do that 200 years ago when ideas and information spread hundred of times slower than it does now. Does it make slavery ok then or now? No. Does it answer the question of whether those statues should exist? No. I think it DOES make it easier to see the root of the problem, that we are not a different species of human than we were 200 years ago and we are demonstrably prone to exactly the same behavior.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 01:30:45 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11290 on: August 21, 2017, 02:04:04 pm »

I am however totally willing to accept as a valid claim anyone who says they aren't the same species as the racist dicks who put most of them up about a century ago in an ongoing attempt to change the discussion from "slavery is bad" to "states rights are good" because fuck those guys.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11291 on: August 21, 2017, 02:15:18 pm »

I mean, it is a bad idea to form actual mobs to tear them down. I think we can all agree on that. Sends the wrong message entirely.

Also Max, sorry but could you clarify I am having trouble discerning which group you are flipping the bird to.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11292 on: August 21, 2017, 02:16:19 pm »

Well, this is fun. The short form is that between trump's family et al and him shirking weekends or whathaveyou to go chill at wherever (usually that he owns, funneling who knows how much taxpayer money into his coffers), secret service employees are hitting the legal limit on their salary and overtime compensation; i.e. they've straight up maxed out the amount the organization can pay them, as per decree of congress.

Director's saying over 1k workers have entirely capped out with ~four months left to go in the year, which is something like a sixth or seventh their total workforce, near as I can tell. Dunno exactly how many times it's happened previously, but it doesn't seem to be many.

E: Though, that said, they've also been skirting it for a while now, apparently. Current admin's just the bad toupee that broke the camel's back.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 02:24:31 pm by Frumple »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11293 on: August 21, 2017, 02:25:17 pm »

18 members of his family what the heck. Why does he have 18 family members there? Is that normal? Are they all in the White House and going on his weekend trips?

Can he just live in one place for a month? Financially wasteful as hell.
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FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11294 on: August 21, 2017, 02:28:34 pm »

It's not necessarily abnormal so far as american family sizes go (if not terribly common, either), though it isn't normal for presidents, from what I could tell. Obama's was 31 or so total, trump's over that by 11-ish.

Though no, not really following him around too much, far as I noticed. Just doing things like traveling overseas to conduct business, which still requires a protection detail. Pretty sure most close family (and maybe close friends?) get coverage regardless of where they are, for reasons that should be really, really obvious.
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