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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4170716 times)

Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11130 on: August 18, 2017, 08:38:33 pm »

In Watergate Nixon's VP resigned anyway, in spite of not (IIRC) being very connected to the scandal.

In Watergate Nixon's VP took an oath from a judge and became President. Spiro Agnew was allowed to plead guilty to tax evasion and resign the Vice Presidency in exchange for not being prosecuted for over $100,000 in bribes he took at a lower office.
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Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11131 on: August 18, 2017, 08:39:22 pm »

In Watergate Nixon's VP resigned anyway, in spite of not (IIRC) being very connected to the scandal.
Agnew didn't resign because of Watergate, he resigned because he was a criminal and took bribes.

Shoot Agnew First.

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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11132 on: August 18, 2017, 08:41:40 pm »

As far as Spiro Agnew, I did say "got caught up in his own scandal." Pence hasn't been connected to the Russia scandal in any way or got tangled in the net yet, but anything could happen.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:43:49 pm by smjjames »
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11133 on: August 18, 2017, 09:36:37 pm »

Looks like any kind of truce between Bannon and Trump didn't survive even one day.

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"The Trump presidency that we fought for, and won, is over," Bannon said in an interview with The Weekly Standard. "We still have a huge movement, and we will make something of this Trump presidency. But that presidency is over. It'll be something else."
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11134 on: August 18, 2017, 09:40:07 pm »

I love it when the phrase "even one day" is used regarding the Trump Administration. It happens so often, too!

Hey smjjames, you ought to start a poll on the next person to get fired. We could keep this going for four years.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11135 on: August 18, 2017, 09:42:13 pm »

On the whole debate with the confederate statues, I found this: Putting them in a sort of 'memento park' with the historical context around them might be a workable idea. The main idea would be to put them into context in a sort of outdoors museum or something.
I think I may have mentioned that just about every time I've talked with anyone about these damn statues. Memorial parks are a thing. There's crap like pioneer settlements that have restored antique buildings. All sorts of junk like that. Hell, maybe if you spun it hard enough you could actually get some jerks to fund the ruddy humanities.

Also totally want to get in on the eco discussion but also entirely too fucked up right now. Will just say most time it's not really economics that are failing, but jackasses refusing to listen to what the hell it's trying to tell them. Can't just write off externalities you jackfucks! It's part of the bloody economic picture! Stakeholders involve more than you, your customers, and your stockholders! CEO shits could stand to knock it the hell off and start actually trying to run a bloody business instead of an updated robber barony or some crap. Also some shit it just doesn't work. Economics've told you capitalist people a thousand goddamn times sometimes this shit just does not work with certain sorts of services. This is literally high school level. Stop, damnit.

... I've just realized I'm like those confed enthusiast folks pissed off at nazis and white supremacists and racist fucks in general for jacking their shtick. Except with businessy stuff.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11136 on: August 18, 2017, 09:50:56 pm »

Much like with Confederate enthusiasts, it's never gonna happen. Maybe it is theoretically possible to force corporations to account for their externalities and to not maximize the consumer -> stockholder profit, but that results in a society where some of the most powerful organizations are corporations headed by stockholders anyway, and they're going to tear down any regulatory body that's put in their way with that power. This in turn ensures a banking system that functions off of increasingly high percentages of debt to real economic activity, and makes both bubbles and hyperinflation increasingly likely over time.

There's no saving it. Burn down the stock market, make all ventures employee-owned, and begin a mass automation -> universal income economic pathway. The longer we wait, the more time we spend at risk of destroying the whole world due to an inflated intangible web of IOUs, which would just be a fucking pathetic way for humanity to go out.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11137 on: August 18, 2017, 10:06:45 pm »

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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11138 on: August 18, 2017, 10:33:19 pm »

I'm not really in the mood to discuss economics right now, so instead I'll move our apocalyptic discussion onto a different track: does anyone have concerns about what the effect of the internet is ultimately going to be? It's arguably the most important change in recent history, on-par with manufacturing, and there's no real telling what all of the social effects are going to be.

I feel like all the worrying about the internet is in the vein of "Oh everyone is just going to be lazy fucks who spend all day on facebook". But I mean for example there are children being exposed to it at the age of two now, and I'm not convinced our brains were really meant to handle something like it. There are a few corporations controlling the rules, and a bazillion creators (from other companies to youtubers to media organizations) doing all sorts of stuff, and there's no real guarantee that the ultimate results will be, on the whole, a net positive, either for society or individuals.
Hey smjjames, you ought to start a poll on the next person to get fired. We could keep this going for four years.
Seconding this.

I'm putting my money on McMasters for now. Trump's the type to fire both sides of an argument (see: Da Mooch). But that also depends on who he brings in.
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Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11139 on: August 18, 2017, 10:40:25 pm »

So this slipped under the radar, but Maryland got rid of the Taney statue at their state house.

At this point, the thing that's really pissing me off (besides how incredibly far they're pushing "confederate statue) is that it's been a whole week of iconoclasm across the country, and they're still justifying it with Charlottesville.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11140 on: August 18, 2017, 10:43:43 pm »

Some people have said that politics will just continue to become more and more polarized due to the internet because each political party no longer needs to appeal to a general audience but rather can seek out and cultivate a core fanatical audience.

I'd mention how much it is being used as a tool of misinformation... But honestly I don't think news was THAT accurate before (and when it was it was because of a strong belief in the ROLE of news, but at the same time it was more easily manipulated) and the availability of counter information certainly changes... in fact the sort of biased political news is SEEMINGLY getting less popular in light of alternate sources in spite growing political power in some areas.

So I guess at the same time while it is leading to radicalization it is also leading to... deradicalization? Or maybe more accurately the ability for moderates or people in the middle or who do not strongly associate or ONLY associate with one ideology to actually form opinions within that sphere? So a stronger middle?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:00:09 pm by Neonivek »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11141 on: August 18, 2017, 10:59:18 pm »

Regarding the internet, we'll find some sort of socio-cultural equilibrium somewhere. In terms of social media in politics, that has only shown up extremely recently, Obama got started on it, Trump is the one using it full time.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11142 on: August 18, 2017, 11:01:22 pm »

The news is going to burn its audience out because even many of biggest Trump haters are just tired of the news at this point.

They really might as well make a section called "Trump News"

I mean the news broadcast is justified... But even if there was a tornado everyday in the USA, people would get really tired of reading about every single one.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11143 on: August 18, 2017, 11:11:06 pm »

Alright, here's my take on that article.

At the end of the article it's mentioned that they don't get all the incentives unless they expand up to 13,000 employees, so we'll assume that number. That's a little more than 200k per job, about five years at the average salary.

I see literally nothing wrong with this.

I kid, I kid, but I consider this very acceptable. Industrial jobs tend to create and support more jobs; a 50k average salary for 13,000 people can support a pretty big town. Assuming the factory sticks around, it's more sustainable than just paying them 50k each from the state budget.

I really wish that article said where in Wisconsin this factory would be. I'm curious how 50k stacks up to cost of living in the area. The negotiators for the state could've done a much better job, but I think it's not too terrible a deal.

Edit: Old but gold article, relevant. It /is/ written by a manufacturing dude, but the point gets made.

Edit2: To clarify, I don't particularly support this deal. Wisconsin is in a fairly strong economic position and doesn't need to spend so much cash on one deal. But at the same time, someone has to defend it, right?

I don't think anyone really has to defend it... and I MIGHT agree with you on some level if it weren't coming out of taxpayer pockets to fund the whole thing. You're taking money from people, filtering it through State Government, then FoxConn, then employees, then it goes back to the community it was taken from... maybe. I get that socialism is evil and all, but at the same time, in this one specific case at least, putting that money into social projects or just flat out welfare payments to people would cut out a couple of layers where the money is getting siphoned off and diluted.

There's the argument that after the whole thing is paid off in 4-15 years 2043*, depending on how the math works out, then there might be some potential return on investment. But there's no guarantee of that either. Large companies like FoxConn are more than able to shift locations every few years to take advantage of more favorable political favors. Even any "Loss" on capital they might sustain by abandoning their Wisconsin holdings would work itself out in the accounting.

I'm not even saying that governments helping businesses get started is a bad thing. It often works out well for new and emerging areas of business and for smaller businesses trying to establish a foothold in their first few years. However this isn't anything new, nor is it a small business. This is the worlds 4th largest tech manufacturing company just plopping down another factory to crank out TVs. My big question is if there's even anything in this for FoxConn other than the government subsidies.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#United_States
Wikipedia suggests Wisconsin's budget office isn't even looking at a "break even" point until 2043.

EDIT:
The news is going to burn its audience out because even many of biggest Trump haters are just tired of the news at this point.

They really might as well make a section called "Trump News"

I mean the news broadcast is justified... But even if there was a tornado everyday in the USA, people would get really tired of reading about every single one.

Quote from: NOAA.gov
In terms of absolute tornado counts, the United States leads the list, with an average of over 1,000 tornadoes recorded each year.

They may not happen EVERY day... but on average... 3 times a day. We DON'T hear about every tornado in the US.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:13:35 pm by sluissa »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11144 on: August 18, 2017, 11:41:15 pm »

Well yeah, other than local news where it'd be relevant as when warnings are issued, we only hear about them when they hit a town.
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