Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Frumple]

Doing anything else pisses on the very concept of a free society.

Not half as hard as sitting with your thumb up your ass while genocidal shitbags drum up enough bodies to start killing people.

Seriously, for what has to be approaching the forth or fifth time, this is not a matter of disagreement. This is a matter of a group trying to organize around the goal of genocide. Anything short of violence is preferred, and massively, but if it takes cops, or the people if they fail to do it, physically breaking up their attempts to gain enough resources human and otherwise to try to reach their goals, then so goddamn be it. There is no state where a nazi group operating, be it neo-nazi or otherwise, isn't extending to actual violence. If it's not the immediate exercise of it, it's to attempt to get the ability to. Close to any other fucking ideology there is has room to make an argument otherwise, but nazism is specifically aimed at genocide. Its works immediate or future is aimed at genocide. Everything they do short of stopping being a nazi, is aimed at being able to commit genocide.

The issue is not their opinion, it's the only place that opinion can end up if they keep having it. Which is killing people. Because, y'know. This isn't just a belief. It's a stated goal of murder. That "belief" is "I am going to try to kill people." As a country, we actually do try to shut down that sort of thing. We just apparently haven't been on the ball enough to get off our ass and apply the metric to goddamn nazis.

As said. If this was a general "any belief", like. You'd be right, sho, giz. But it is not. It is a belief that is explicitly signaling the person holding it is attempting to reach the point they can kill people.

That said, I'd agree engaging in violence strictly because they're a nazi is probably going too far. The primary goal is to prevent them from organizing more than prevent them from existing. Label that shit a terrorist group, stop giving nazi demonstrators permit to march, all that sort of crap. Counter-protesting and all is what you do when your country's governing forces fail to do that. Our country does not have a mandate to give platform to people that have declared their intent to murder its citizenry. No country does. We should not demand of a people they stand themselves hobbled in the face of group working to kill them, just because that group is not immediately doing so, y'know? Maybe that they exhaust most or all other attempts beforehand, but that's the most of it.

[Neonivek]

And as you know that is exactly what we are doing Frumple.

In fact we give them specific maps and locations of minorities along with where they can find possible murder weapons.

[EnigmaticHat]

No but the FBI was specifically banned from tracking, investigating, or taking action against far-right terrorist sleepers in the police.  And when racist extremists get involved, the cops sure seem less trigger happy on the tear gas.  And suddenly learn how to arrest people without killing them.

Edit: Not that that was even Frumple's point... he'd have to clarify, but I think the main stab of it is that genocidal ideologies are inherently threatening.  And thus not categorically the same thing as other ideologies.  Like how the government has to hand out business licenses but if your applied for one for a meth lab you'd be denied and probably put on a list somewhere.

[Frumple]

And as you know that is exactly what we are doing Frumple.

In fact we give them specific maps and locations of minorities along with where they can find possible murder weapons.

The country isn't, maybe. Some of the people in it have. People aligned with them are currently making one of the most, if not the most outright, baldfaced attempt at getting legitimacy back -- and by extension, the resources to keep doing shit like what you're trying to sarcasm about when we're actually talking about a country whose biggest single terrorism problem is right wing extremists -- we've seen in decades.

[Neonivek]

And suddenly learn how to arrest people without killing them.

Sounds like confirmation bias.

How many Taxi drivers were shot by the police when they threw rocks onto cars?

[smjjames]

No but the FBI was specifically banned from tracking, investigating, or taking action against far-right terrorist sleepers in the police.  And when racist extremists get involved, the cops sure seem less trigger happy on the tear gas.  And suddenly learn how to arrest people without killing them.

Not specifically banned against far-right groups, or even police, just hobbled because some of the methods and tools that they use on international groups can't be used on domestic groups because it causes problems with a couple constitutional amendments. I saw an article on it somewhere, let me find it.

And suddenly learn how to arrest people without killing them.

Sounds like confirmation bias.

How many Taxi drivers were shot by the police when they threw rocks onto cars?

What are you referring to?

[EnigmaticHat]

And suddenly learn how to arrest people without killing them.

Sounds like confirmation bias.

How many Taxi drivers were shot by the police when they threw rocks onto cars?

I don't know what that is.  Were the taxi drivers neo-nazis?  Cause otherwise that seems like a non sequitor.

Okay, let me put this to you.  20 BLM activists with AR 15s take over and fortify a rural post office or such.  Think they'd get the same response the Oregon Ranch assholes got?

[Neonivek]

Okay, let me put this to you.  20 BLM activists with AR 15s take over and fortify a rural post office or such.  Think they'd get the same response the Oregon Ranch assholes got?

I am not sure you want to use them as an example? Because we can look up RIGHT NOW how they are treated by police when they turn violent.

Or heck how the Kidnappers associated with BLM were treated by the police (QUITE generously might I add)

[smjjames]

Okay, let me put this to you.  20 BLM activists with AR 15s take over and fortify a rural post office or such.  Think they'd get the same response the Oregon Ranch assholes got?

I am not sure you want to use them as an example... Because we can look up RIGHT NOW how they are treated by police when they turn violent.

That's his whole point.

[Neonivek]

Okay, let me put this to you.  20 BLM activists with AR 15s take over and fortify a rural post office or such.  Think they'd get the same response the Oregon Ranch assholes got?

I am not sure you want to use them as an example... Because we can look up RIGHT NOW how they are treated by police when they turn violent.

That's his whole point.

OHHH

Sorry, I thought the Oregan Ranch was an example of the police acting "civil" and that BLM is treated "Not Civilly"

My mistake I am silly.

[smjjames]

Okay, let me put this to you.  20 BLM activists with AR 15s take over and fortify a rural post office or such.  Think they'd get the same response the Oregon Ranch assholes got?

Or heck how the Kidnappers associated with BLM were treated by the police (QUITE generously might I add)

Could you link sources? Sounds like you're talking about local stuff that happened in NYC that the rest of us don't know about.

I think there was actually a taxidriver union strike a ways back in NYC, maybe that's what you were referring to with the taxidrivers?

[Max™]

Remember all the times liberals tried to cling to the moral high ground and lost badly against folks who don't give a fuck about it?

Know when you're never in the wrong? When you're standing up to actual fucking nazis and saying 'fuck off, that shit doesn't fly here.'

Free speech matters when governments are trying to limit it, but fuck letting anybody use it as a shield by trying to suggest "nuh uh you can't silence my free speech cause the 1st lets me spew all the nazi bullshit I want" and fuck letting people be confused about things enough to let actual nazis get away with that.

You want to be a nazi, fine, go practice your free speech somewhere else, like the middle of the ocean, or keep it to yourself and be properly ashamed of the shit you let out on /pol/ from your parents basement.

You want to march and chant your shit while circling around a fucking statue of Robert E. Lee? Sure, let's take a big helping of nazi bullshit and slap some "southern pride" on top, cause what's better than a big "fuck you" to jews? Adding another to everyone descended from slaves! Why stop there, if you ain't white, you know where you stand with these shitbags.


In other news, before Trump disbanded his council shit, Campbell bailed, I assume the risk of being labeled actual soup nazis was too much for them.

[Playergamer]

And suddenly learn how to arrest people without killing them.

Eh, I wouldn't make that argument. Two people died in the Ferguson riots, one found dead in a parking garage and one beaten to death with hammers. Nobody died in the Baltimore riots. Those incidents were far more violent than Charlottesville, but the police didn't kill anybody.

I know you're talking about police brutality in general when you say that, but my point is that police have gotten pretty good at controlling crowds without killing anyone. It seems to me that there are better explanations than ghost skin infiltration as to why white supremacists don't get a riot cop crackdown.

[Neonivek]

Okay, let me put this to you.  20 BLM activists with AR 15s take over and fortify a rural post office or such.  Think they'd get the same response the Oregon Ranch assholes got?

Or heck how the Kidnappers associated with BLM were treated by the police (QUITE generously might I add)

Could you link sources? Sounds like you're talking about local stuff that happened in NYC that the rest of us don't know about.

I think there was actually a taxidriver union strike a ways back in NYC, maybe that's what you were referring to with the taxidrivers?

Sure, as long as you don't mind the wait... Sleep deprived and suffering from the Aetius (Thanks Autocorrect, I HOPE that is the correct word)

The Taxi thing wasn't even a major incident.

[Dunamisdeos]

Folks we are not looking at a binary choice here. It isn't a choice between meeting them with violence or outright submission. It's a choice between actual, lasting change and escalation to further violence. The number of Nazis in the world remains the same after I punch one, or when we throw rocks at their horde.

Exactly nothing has changed from all of this fighting, and yet *this guy* has removed more than 20 KKK members from the world by making friends. Shockingly, no one died or was injured during this process. This single elderly blues musician has been more effective than the entire violent opposition.

White Supremacy and Nazis thereof are not a nation, or an army. They do not require supplies, they will never agree not to exist or sign an accord. They have no populace to protect, no farms to burn to force a settlement. I can't put on a Rambo bandana and shoot enough of them and then they go away and the credits roll. They are a set of ideas, and I would have to be deliberately ignorant to think that anyone can stop an idea with force.

The Racists/Supremacists/Nazis DO NOT SUFFER FROM VIOLENCE. The ONLY measurable result thus far has been the people who suffer like the bystanders who get run over by cars, and if that somehow feels like victory or progress to us then we are every bit a part of the problem. If we are not making lasting, measurable amounts of change with our actions against the ideas of White Supremacy and Nazi ideals, then we are helping to propagate and further radicalize their movement. You cannot do this with force.