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[Frumple]

Man, fine. Just note carefully pretty much goddamn nobody is saying the government should, about what this thread of discussion started on. This ain't about legislation or enforcement. This is about folks noting that when an american citizen is killed by a domestic terrorist, that milquetoast shite the POTUS has spat out is not what is supposed to be coming out.

Maybe the shit turns around in the next few days when it becomes more obvious exactly how he fucked up. It even approaches possible, given that even the bloody GOP has been having folks pick up the message of, "Yo', what the hell." It'd almost be nice to be surprised on this one.

[RedKing]

Don't misunderstand me.  The thing is, if we can't muster that massive public shaming (and so far we aren't), then other courses of action become not unreasonable.

Because violence IS what's explicitly at stake.  And if the situation progresses as it is without ever turning back, the only question left for each of us in the end will be which side we choose to be violent for.

I stand by my past statements that white nationalism and similar ideologies cannot be allowed to feel comfortable proclaiming their beliefs in public.  The counter-protests should be 4x as large and the boos from random observants should be deafening.  But the problem is our country's cultural make-up is such that we don't have that going on.  The United States could fall back into its history very quickly (the last public lynchings still being in living memory) if we don't get this under control.  We just need to allow people to feel like it's culturally acceptable to be openly bigoted in public again.

And if we can't prevent this with deafening shame, then I stand by my support for nazi punching.  Don't let them fucking feel safe spreading their message in public space.  Get away with it if you can.  If not, it still must be done.  The whole true victim narrative is a smokescreen to distract from the agenda to make their message publicly acceptable again.

I can be onboard with that. The phrase that's been rolling around in my head is, "Back under their rocks, or under the dirt."

The big difference for me with this is that where in previous decades (even prior to the 1960s), white supremacists kept their identities hidden in most communities because they realized their actions were considered beyond the pale by the rest of society. These skinny little fuckers now either feel like they *are* the mainstream, or they don't give a flying fuck about the rest of society, because they know society isn't going to do shit to them. Being a Klanner had repercussions in the past, unless you lived in an area where racism was institutionally entrenched.

Being a Nazi needs to start having repercussions again.

[smjjames]

It'll have to start with the Republicans as they are the ones who have been feeding on and nurturing that kind of crazy. Yes, they condemn the Charlottesville stuff, but they're reckoning with the seeds that they've sown and nurtured. Not so much nurtured than tolerated though.

[MaximumZero]

I never thought I'd get the chance to punch a Nazi. What a time to be alive.

[SalmonGod]

These skinny little fuckers now either feel like they *are* the mainstream, or they don't give a flying fuck about the rest of society

The way I see it, they're not far from the mainstream, and that's the problem.  The distance between these white nationalists and the majority of people I know in real life outside of my own social circle is just a shade of self-image.

We still live in a country where nearly half the population votes in support of bigoted laws.  Where a police officer can get rich off of donations for controversially shooting a black man.  Where half the cultural discourse over a police shooting of an unarmed black person will revolve around how violent and scary black people are, and whether the victim in their history has proven themselves to be enough of a good type of black person.  Where the drug war and incarceration trends are still horribly, horribly racist in nature and ravage majority black communities or are actively geared towards minority vote suppression.  Where LGBT having basic human rights is still controversial, and many still hide who they are in public out of fear for their safety.

The only thing between all that and the violent bigotry of USA pre-60's is taboo.  A cultural taboo has been established for decades where it was universally understood that you couldn't openly declare specific groups of people as inherently sub-human, or espouse direct violence or enslavement against them based on who they are.  This not only effects how people behave in public, it effects how self-image interacts with thinking.  Few would dare to self-describe as being an actual nazi or KKK member, because they've been raised in a society which strongly associates that with being a terrible person.  Nobody, even actually terrible people, want to feel like a terrible person.

What's happening right now is that taboo is being challenged.  If our cultural narrative fails to adequately reinforce the idea that this taboo is still a thing, and the people challenging it are actually terrible people whose ideas are strongly rejected by society, then it's all out the window.  That socio-psychological barrier between attempts-to-be subtle bigotry and To Kill a Mockingbird/chemically castrate the gays bigotry is no longer in play, and shit gets real.

[Baffler]

I never thought I'd get the chance to punch a Nazi. What a time to be alive.

You still probably won't. Even now most people just make their own (like SalmonGod seems to be doing even now) rather than going out and finding one that's genuine.

[SalmonGod]

I never thought I'd get the chance to punch a Nazi. What a time to be alive.

You still probably won't. Even now most people just make their own (like SalmonGod seems to be doing even now) rather than going out and finding one that's genuine.

Don't know what you're talking about.  I'm not making up people who are literally out in public proclaiming white supremacy and associating themselves with organizations that historically pursued bigoted agendas through violence.

[Lord Shonus]

You are, however, insisting that they are not a tiny, tiny minority; but are simply openly proclaiming what everybody white in the country really believes in secret. Which is nothing but a steaming pile of nonsense.

[Frumple]

It's... kinda' self-evident they're not a tiny, tiny minority, though? Duke isn't exactly wrong when he tells the world trump owes his place as POTUS to 'em. If nothing else, the impact is rather disproportionate to the size.

Everybody white probably ain't accurate, but SG saying most folks in his social circle are probably is. Chunks of this country are still quite like that, and actually aren't more than a loosening of taboo from cheering that sort of filth on pretty openly.

[RedKing]

I never thought I'd get the chance to punch a Nazi. What a time to be alive.

You still probably won't. Even now most people just make their own (like SalmonGod seems to be doing even now) rather than going out and finding one that's genuine.

Spoiler: NSFW in Germany (click to show/hide)

Hey look, I found one! That wasn't hard.

Spoiler: Also NSFW in Germany (click to show/hide)

Ooh, another couple!

Do you really want me to keep this up? Because that's how you get pictures of self-identifying Nazis rammed down your throat.


EDIT: Oh wait, let me guess....
1. They're doing all this ironically.
2. Not everyone who carries a Nazi flag is a Nazi.
3. Not everyone who delivers a Hitlergruß is a Nazi.
4. Not everyone who chants "Blood and Soil" is a Nazi.


Have I missed any yet?

[Baffler]

I never thought I'd get the chance to punch a Nazi. What a time to be alive.

You still probably won't. Even now most people just make their own (like SalmonGod seems to be doing even now) rather than going out and finding one that's genuine.

Don't know what you're talking about.  I'm not making up people who are literally out in public proclaiming white supremacy and associating themselves with organizations that historically pursued bigoted agendas through violence.

Kinda ninja'd by Lord Shonus, but there were how many people at this rally? How many people liked that 'American Hero' page people were talking about a few pages back? 2,000? 4,000? That's a big crowd to face down for sure, but next to 300+ million Americans total it's such a tiny blip that it's barely even worthy of consideration. Definitely not enough to justify the general mobilization against the right that's steadily brewing, where ordinary mainstream Republican politicians and voters are "called to task, and to account for and disavow these extremists in their ranks." Maybe this'll all blow over in a week or two, but the steady stream of highly publicized political violence that's starting to appear doesn't fill me with hope.

I never thought I'd get the chance to punch a Nazi. What a time to be alive.

You still probably won't. Even now most people just make their own (like SalmonGod seems to be doing even now) rather than going out and finding one that's genuine.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hey look, I found one! That wasn't hard.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ooh, another couple!

Do you really want me to keep this up? Because that's how you get pictures of self-identifying Nazis rammed down your throat.

I think you may have missed the point off my post.

[smjjames]

RedKing, I REALLY wouldn't overdo it with the pictures. I know you're only doing it in reaction to maximumzero (who was being sarcastic) or baffler, but others might not catch the context.

[Frumple]

Or at least pop a warning more explicit. Iirc we got german folk around here, and it's still conceptually possible that kinda' thing can cause problems.

[RedKing]

Spoilered with appropriate text.

[Frumple]

Though in other-ish news, I did find out somethin' kinda'... interesting isn't the right word, but whatever, because of all this.

Y'all know the GOP has been spearheading attempted legislation that would make "accidentally" killing protesters by way of vehicular manslaughter no longer grounds for a civil suite? Can't recall if it's extended to criminal, too, but the "fun" part of that is proving it wasn't an accident takes the prosecution being able to prove intent. Scattered around a few states; mostly being knocked down because what the shit, but it may have passed in a few places. Heard mention of NC, but haven't gotten around to checking.

Says a lot about the GOP leadership, really. Idle pastime: Trying to more or less legalize murdering political activists and/or get people out of civil damages if they can't muster enough of a fuck to not drive over protesters. Can't imagine that would go well on a date site profile or somethin'.