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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4453933 times)

Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10545 on: August 13, 2017, 05:26:28 pm »

Hm, I've got a question for you. Since you don't want the government to dissuade the beliefs of neonazis, does that mean that you don't want the government to dissuade people from being radicalized with radical islamic extremism? I'm just following the path that your logic leads to. Though it's more on the community to do that, not the government.

Okay, I will concede that there is a point at which speech becomes intrinsically linked to violence in such a way that it cannot be defended. If someone tweets an instruction to detonate a bomb in town square at 5pm on Tuesday, with reasonable expectation that his followers will carry out his instruction, that speech is equitable to an act of violence and must be treated as such. With radical Islamic extremism, there is sufficient evidence to expect that it will lead directly to acts of violence, and as such it is fair to use whatever means are necessary to squelch it.

I honestly was not paying close attention to the speeches of the white supremacists at this rally, as that type of dialogue is of no interest to me. If they were simply promoting ideals of superiority, then I stand by my assessment that it is protected speech. If they were proposing direct and specific action against other parties, then that would likely qualify as grounds for the government to intervene, and at that point it would be appropriate for the president to take a stance against the party.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10546 on: August 13, 2017, 05:31:10 pm »

Though in other-ish news, I did find out somethin' kinda'... interesting isn't the right word, but whatever, because of all this.

Y'all know the GOP has been spearheading attempted legislation that would make "accidentally" killing protesters by way of vehicular manslaughter no longer grounds for a civil suite? Can't recall if it's extended to criminal, too, but the "fun" part of that is proving it wasn't an accident takes the prosecution being able to prove intent. Scattered around a few states; mostly being knocked down because what the shit, but it may have passed in a few places. Heard mention of NC, but haven't gotten around to checking.

Says a lot about the GOP leadership, really. Idle pastime: Trying to more or less legalize murdering political activists and/or get people out of civil damages if they can't muster enough of a fuck to not drive over protesters. Can't imagine that would go well on a date site profile or somethin'.

Yep, passed the House here in NC (67-48), was sent to the Senate and died in committee there.
Was also proposed in ND and TN and was voted down there. The fact that that you saw extremely similar bills all pop up in multiple states at the same time means it's probably being pushed by ALEC or some similar legislation mill.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10547 on: August 13, 2017, 06:08:54 pm »

You are, however, insisting that they are not a tiny, tiny minority; but are simply openly proclaiming what everybody white in the country really believes in secret. Which is nothing but a steaming pile of nonsense.

Not exactly.  I'm not saying that half the country is actively hiding their true nazi identity from the world.  I'm saying that the shittiness we do still see from not-a-minority which is distanced somewhere on a gradient from the outright nazi shit grows from the same emotional roots.  There's a limit today on how far it grows, because of a feature we managed to install in our cultural make-up through much blood and tears and the way social psychology works.  But those roots aren't completely starved out and dead, and the taboo isn't self-sustaining.  If the forces that want to challenge it are fiercer than those that want to maintain it, then its influence will erode and that tiny minority will grow.

-Behind the hundreds who are bold enough to march in the flesh proclaiming white supremacy are thousands who will share those beliefs online, but are not so bold to go out and do so in person. 
-Behind the thousands who will only risk outing themselves online are tens of thousands who share those beliefs, but wouldn't dare risk associating themselves for fear of the social consequences. 
-Next to those tens of thousands are hundreds of thousands who harbor an ugliness that they keep hidden and scarcely admit to themselves, unless they're in the right company, but wouldn't dare allow themselves to fully embrace that ugliness because society tells them it's wrong and they don't want to be shunned as terrible people or risk questioning to themselves whether they really are terrible people.  But what happens with them when society's condemnation weakens? 
-Behind those hundreds of thousands are millions who don't have strong feelings of hatred, but tend towards negative feelings regarding anyone who's different from them.  The people who will throw a "Like" on social media towards someone pointing out the black guy who just got murdered by police looked like a thug, but don't say it themselves.  Doesn't risk feeling terrible about themselves, because they never actively wish any direct harm on anyone but will express some smug satisfaction or just-world-fallacy sentiments when it does happen.  Doesn't feel strongly about pursuing it, but wouldn't care too much if other groups were oppressed, and would align themselves with the oppressors if it were most convenient for them.  Most anyone who watches Fox News is at least a part of this grouping.

Everybody white probably ain't accurate, but SG saying most folks in his social circle are probably is. Chunks of this country are still quite like that, and actually aren't more than a loosening of taboo from cheering that sort of filth on pretty openly.

Not *in* my social circle :P

But *outside* of my social circle, here in Indiana, I'd say at least 10% of the people I interact with are among the hidden ugliness group described above, and another 40% on top of that are among the next group.  And I live close to the city.  Farther out, it's much worse.  If you don't see these people, you either live in a much better place than I do, or you're not paying attention.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 06:13:40 pm by SalmonGod »
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Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10548 on: August 13, 2017, 06:13:10 pm »

Top Dog has fired a rally attendee. For those who don't know, Top Dog is a chain of a couple of hotdog places here in Berkeley. This firing won't stand for, ironically, the same reason the BUSD didn't fire Yvette Felarca. California law says you can't fire someone for legal, off duty actions, and he hasn't been accused of a crime.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10549 on: August 13, 2017, 06:28:12 pm »

Pretty good chance he may have punched someone though, but yeah, no proof regardless. Also, sounds like the August 27th rally in Berkeley would end up pretty big, at least now that people's attention is on it. Hopefully it's not violent, but hey, it's Berkeley.

In potential future Trump admin turnover news, there's a report that the attacks on McMaster are about to get worse. Since several WH staffers and Trump are not liking the attacks and many are blaming Bannon. So, something's gotta give.

Would be interesting to see what beans Bannon spills if he is ousted.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10550 on: August 13, 2017, 06:48:32 pm »

Questionably anything? It's not bad odds people would literally kill bannon if he started talking. Not even necessarily because of what he'd have to spill on trump's lot, but just because of what it signals so far as ability to trust the guy to stay quiet about various sorts of stuff.

Snitching would be how he gets all sorts of alt-right folks he's connected to, that just happen to know of someone or another willing to put a traitor in a grave, twitchy. Whatever the majority of 'em may or may not be, the alt-right very much is the single largest source of domestic terrorism in this country, and the various crime ties aren't exactly trivial. If he's made confidences people'd kill over, and it's pretty damn possible he has over the years, that sort of thing is how you get them to give it a go.

Conceptually protective services or somethin' could manage something, but do you actually think there is a single chance in hell one of the major figures in the movement to burn the government to the ground would actually go for that?

I could see a bunch of the trump co critters getting away with something like that, 'cause they generally look like they're not really in particularly deep, but bannon has been face down and rolling in that muck for years.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10551 on: August 13, 2017, 06:57:06 pm »

Questionably anything? It's not bad odds people would literally kill bannon if he started talking. Not even necessarily because of what he'd have to spill on trump's lot, but just because of what it signals so far as ability to trust the guy to stay quiet about various sorts of stuff.

I was mostly thinking gossip wise, not stuff he'd get killed (literally or metaphorically) over. Mueller would certainly try to get Bannon to spill the beans on Russia, if any though.

Quote
Snitching would be how he gets all sorts of alt-right folks he's connected to, that just happen to know of someone or another willing to put a traitor in a grave, twitchy. Whatever the majority of 'em may or may not be, the alt-right very much is the single largest source of domestic terrorism in this country, and the various crime ties aren't exactly trivial. If he's made confidences people'd kill over, and it's pretty damn possible he has over the years, that sort of thing is how you get them to give it a go.

Conceptually protective services or somethin' could manage something, but do you actually think there is a single chance in hell one of the major figures in the movement to burn the government to the ground would actually go for that?

I could see a bunch of the trump co critters getting away with something like that, 'cause they generally look like they're not really in particularly deep, but bannon has been face down and rolling in that muck for years.

I didn't mean Bannon would spill every single thing HE knows, I meant stuff about Trump or Russia. If Trumps base sours on Bannons ousting, he could very well turn on Trump.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10552 on: August 13, 2017, 06:58:30 pm »

Top Dog has fired a rally attendee. For those who don't know, Top Dog is a chain of a couple of hotdog places here in Berkeley. This firing won't stand for, ironically, the same reason the BUSD didn't fire Yvette Felarca. California law says you can't fire someone for legal, off duty actions, and he hasn't been accused of a crime.
Worth noting that according to that article, Top Dog's management are big Libertarians. So can't blame this on SJWs Gone Wild.
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Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10553 on: August 13, 2017, 06:59:41 pm »

Top Dog has fired a rally attendee. For those who don't know, Top Dog is a chain of a couple of hotdog places here in Berkeley. This firing won't stand for, ironically, the same reason the BUSD didn't fire Yvette Felarca. California law says you can't fire someone for legal, off duty actions, and he hasn't been accused of a crime.
Worth noting that according to that article, Top Dog's management are big Libertarians. So can't blame this on SJWs Gone Wild.
Don't worry, I go to top dog every couple of months. Come for the teeth-filing hot dogs, stay for the literature.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10554 on: August 13, 2017, 07:01:15 pm »

Top Dog has fired a rally attendee. For those who don't know, Top Dog is a chain of a couple of hotdog places here in Berkeley. This firing won't stand for, ironically, the same reason the BUSD didn't fire Yvette Felarca. California law says you can't fire someone for legal, off duty actions, and he hasn't been accused of a crime.
Worth noting that according to that article, Top Dog's management are big Libertarians. So can't blame this on SJWs Gone Wild.
Unless you look at who did the doxxing or bring out lolbertarian memes

It's also bretty cool that america has hot dog restaurants, I thought those weren't real

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10555 on: August 13, 2017, 07:03:43 pm »

I didn't mean Bannon would spill every single thing HE knows, I meant stuff about Trump or Russia. If Trumps base sours on Bannons ousting, he could very well turn on Trump.
I know you were talking about that, smj. Thing is, the sorta' folks that's willing to go that far generally don't care who the hell you're backstabbing, just that you are and you have things you can stab them with, too.

It's not exactly unknown for people with criminal (or equivalent) ties that break ranks to get dealt with by people largely or entirely unrelated to whoever they immediately broke ranks with. If you can be broke once, you can be broke twice, so someone goes and makes sure you're broke into enough pieces the question becomes as academic as your tenure in cold storage.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10556 on: August 13, 2017, 07:25:01 pm »

drunkposted sorry
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:15:46 pm by Rolan7 »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10557 on: August 13, 2017, 07:38:34 pm »

*scratches head* Uh. That's actually kinda' one of the few areas where just about everyone in our political system measurably benefits from it. Chunk to do with why food is as cheap as it is, why people in poverty aren't really outright starving much of the time.

There's a lot of other shit seven different kinds of wrong with the situation, but that that de-facto slavery is providing a fair heap of shit to the country as a whole is one of the reasons the issue's as loggerheaded as it is.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10558 on: August 13, 2017, 07:40:37 pm »

Goodness I fell asleep... Thankfully I don't have to do that much damage control.

"Who benefits from mexican de-facto slaves?

It's not us liberals, I tell you that"

Let me see... Liberal Americans believe in Privatization, which includes prisons, which enacts slave labor and many of these slaves are Mexicans.

Or is the American Left no longer part of Raganism?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 08:14:09 pm by Neonivek »
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milo christiansen

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Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #10559 on: August 13, 2017, 08:14:04 pm »

Liberals push for a lot of things they claim they don't believe in...
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