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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4457047 times)

nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3540 on: March 15, 2017, 06:12:41 pm »

I've actually started seeing this from a friend who IMO is a little too in to what 4chan does. He doesn't participate but he consumes a lot of it, and there are times he's so gleeful about this stuff I have a hard time even understanding where he's coming from. He's also started to talk a little alt-righty sometimes off the cuff. (We were skimming through HBO movies and this dumb Victorian-themed horror movie about a brother and sister who kill people and sleep with each other came up, and he said something like "yeah the moral depravity of Hollywood is pushing stuff like incest" and I was like.......wut? Where did that come from? Obviously people make smut but when did this become about Big Entertainment.)

The whole thing strikes me like a wind up toy. Every time you touch that toy, for whatever reason, you end up turning the crank. Even the attempt to be like "Ok, seriously?" just winds them up further. I figure the problem is self-correcting though. Living for too long inside the memesphere has its own consequences.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 06:48:13 pm by nenjin »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3541 on: March 15, 2017, 07:01:11 pm »

The White House becomes a hotbed of paranoia

Real life inches ever closers to satire.

How much was Nixons White House a hotbed of paranoia, I wonder......

Though I wonder how much of it is driven by Trump's own paranoia, the paranoia that infuses the far-right, and from a simple lack of experience. Though they have been digging their own hole with their alternate realities.

Although this quote "“I wouldn't call it paranoia under the circumstances,” said a Republican who communicates with many administration aides through encrypted apps. “It’s not paranoia if people really are out to get you, and everybody actually is out to get everyone else.”" makes it sound like a combination of Game of Thrones and House of Cards, basically, it's a cutthroat environment there, tooth and nail, swim or die.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3542 on: March 15, 2017, 07:02:37 pm »

You'll remember that the point of the prisoner's dilemma is precisely that the right answer is to defect. That's the logical thing to do. There's no way to justify cooperation from a logical perspective: that's why it's a dillema. In an iterated dilemma things are different.
That's not the point of the prisoner's dilemma. The point is that when dealing with multiple non-communicative actors, it's illogical to treat any scenario as if it wasn't iterated.
Now that's a statement that does not logically follow, and which I've never encountered (so you'll have to explain your point, because I don't get it). Encountering multiple non-communicative actors in non-iterated dilemmas doesn't change the math: if it's one turn and you do not defect, you are taking a strictly suboptimal outcome, because you always do better by defecting then you would have by cooperating regardless of what your partner decides to do. It's the Maximin option. A one-turn prisoner's dilemma should always result in defection, period. It's only when there is the threat of being held to account for past actions that the prisoner's dilemma ever encourages cooperation; i.e. through the tit-for-tat strategy, because only in those scenarios is there any danger of the future.
No dilemma exists outside of time, and the prisoner's dilemma is further complicated by the presence of another intelligent actor. That other person is having similar thoughts to you, projecting the possible iterations of this event, and so it becomes functionally iterative even though it is only happening once. Unless you have reason to think the second person is insane, the only logical move is cooperation because it is the only move that doesn't lock you both into a "wine in front of me" death spiral.

And defection is not more optimal, if you both defect it's the worst outcome for both of you.

The main point of the prisoner's dilemma is that it's foolish to go for the gold prize of you defect/they cooperate, because it's not real. A rational actor will know to cooperate, and an irrational actor will be tempted, but even if you know you have an irrational actor as your partner you have to try for cooperation anyway because either:

A. You defect and they also defect, you're both fucked 100%.

B. You cooperate and they defect, you're fucked 100%.

See how there is one common element to being fucked here? And this applies to both sides. Expanding fuckage is inevitable in the instance that either party chooses defection. All informed human beings are obligated to spread this message of anti-fuckage to reduce total global fuckage due to simple cognitive traps.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3544 on: March 15, 2017, 07:37:15 pm »

... didn't that happen like a week or two ago, too? Maybe was the initial paperwork or somethin'.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3545 on: March 15, 2017, 07:41:16 pm »

They started the whole initial paperwork pretty quick after Trump started version 2 of that muslim ban, so, yeah, it's just the judge giving his verdict on it now.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3546 on: March 15, 2017, 07:48:51 pm »

... didn't that happen like a week or two ago, too? Maybe was the initial paperwork or somethin'.

They block it but they can't really stop trump from trying to reinstate it later on.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3547 on: March 15, 2017, 08:01:34 pm »

The next step might be to get Gorsuch confirmed* and then send it to the SCOTUS.

*I know liberals and progressives want the Democrats to fight tooth and nail to not get Gorsuch confirmed, but I feel that doing so would just make McConnell do the 'nuclear option' and change the rules so that SCOTUS nominees only need a simple majority to confirm (51 votes). Besides, the REAL fight is going to be the NEXT one, and if they confirm Gorsuch with 60 votes, then they can more easily give precedent to the 60 vote thing and less likely that McConnell would do the 'nuclear option'. Either way though, it's going to be a nasty fight.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3548 on: March 15, 2017, 09:08:46 pm »

Man, having now seen some of gorsuch's history, I'm not particularly uncomfortable saying that risking that is worth keeping the critter away from a SCOTUS position. Dude's pretty fucked up. Like, "please resurrect scalia and give him his seat back" levels of fucked up. The next fight is the next fight, gorsuch gets the seat and we're stuck with it until the blighter croaks.
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muldrake

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3549 on: March 15, 2017, 09:16:57 pm »

Man, having now seen some of gorsuch's history, I'm not particularly uncomfortable saying that risking that is worth keeping the critter away from a SCOTUS position. Dude's pretty fucked up. Like, "please resurrect scalia and give him his seat back" levels of fucked up. The next fight is the next fight, gorsuch gets the seat and we're stuck with it until the blighter croaks.

Like him or not (I say not), it's essentially merely a return to the status quo that existed prior to Scalia's death, not any particularly drastic change.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3550 on: March 15, 2017, 09:25:34 pm »

Spoiler: Stuff (click to show/hide)
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3551 on: March 15, 2017, 09:40:45 pm »

Like him or not (I say not), it's essentially merely a return to the status quo that existed prior to Scalia's death, not any particularly drastic change.
Except it's not, because you'd have someone even more hostile to humanity and judicial sanity/scruples/etc. than scalia was, sitting there when there's a strong probability of at least one more supreme court position opening up while he's still alive and in the position. The status quo prior to scalia didn't have one or more SC seats likely to open in the next four or so years, and gods help me for saying it in the face of his later years, but scalia actually had something approaching judicial merit in comparison to the guy. Gorsuch being confirmed would definitely be a notable change, not just a return to the status quo. He's a different sort of beast than scalia, even if the latter was relatively similarly aligned. Change might not necessarily be drastic, but it's not a return to the same.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3552 on: March 15, 2017, 10:34:46 pm »

i find it amusing that as the US backslides with climate denial to the benefit of a few company's that China, the country pointed to by the Cheeto as to why we shouldn't care about pollution or they will "out compete us", has been investing hundreds of billions into renewable and cleaning up its problems. this is embarrassing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/asia/china-coal-power-plants-pollution.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/05/world/asia/china-renewable-energy-investment.html
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3553 on: March 15, 2017, 11:07:04 pm »

Yeah, China literally has to because they are literally being choked and literally choking in the smog from the pollution. But pointing to China as a reason to not care about pollution is like not caring about lead/whatever junk in your water until it becomes cloudy and literally undrinkable. Which, I swear is a type of fallacy, but not sure which one.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3554 on: March 15, 2017, 11:20:49 pm »

I don't know what the words would be but the fallacy would be trusting your senses even tho your prior/secondhand knowledge is enough to know that your senses are wrong.  AKA "I know the pollution is going to hurt me but I don't feel hurt right now."
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