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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4253913 times)

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2655 on: February 24, 2017, 10:40:53 pm »

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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2656 on: February 24, 2017, 10:49:03 pm »

Saw that article weeks ago, and yeah, backfired on them badly. It's like they were thinking 'there's no wrong way to practice my open carry rights.'

Imagine them trying that most elsewhere, they'd get the cops called on them.

Even if "Open carry" is a right, that doesn't mean someone else isn't allowed to shoot you when you point a gun at them.

Also the cops note that the pair storming in like that caused members of the public to panic and flee, although you can't really see much in the video. I'm not sure Open Carry should include the right to cause terror and panic in other members of the public.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 11:35:34 pm by Reelya »
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2657 on: February 24, 2017, 11:00:30 pm »

I think he is far better at press than anybody gives him credit, he isn't entirely stupid.
Anybody? I don't think that's true. There's been a low-but-steady drumbeat of "it's a distraction!".

Ah, so it was a false flag...
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Aklyon

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2658 on: February 24, 2017, 11:01:04 pm »

'Right to cause panic and terror' sounds like a seperate permit, yep.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2659 on: February 24, 2017, 11:05:03 pm »

They don't actually give out permits for that, really. Emergency response type stuff gets some leeway there, but even they only have so much slack before the civil and/or criminal suits start rolling in.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2660 on: February 24, 2017, 11:20:36 pm »

Oh hey, interesting details. Apparently, the full tally of agencies blocked from the Press gaggle (that's the actual word) also included The Hill, The Daily Mail, the New York Daily News, and the BBC.

Seeing the Daily News, The Hill, and the BBC in the same sentence is surreal. The Hill is centrist bordering on right-leaning, while the Daily News is literally just one of New York's two rag newspapers and better known for obscene pun headlines than tough questions; notably, the NY Daily News is the rag that opposes Trump very loudly (as opposed to the Post). That's so obviously political I'm actually surprised at how blatant it is.
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2661 on: February 24, 2017, 11:21:05 pm »

Trump playing 4-D chess would need some sort of goal or master stroke, and usually if someone starts playing by randomly knocking their own pieces off the board before getting a bishop stuck up their nose it's a pretty good sign that if they say "checkmate!" it's because they don't understand the significance of what they're saying.
Ah, so it was a false flag...
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2662 on: February 24, 2017, 11:48:31 pm »

Saw that article weeks ago, and yeah, backfired on them badly. It's like they were thinking 'there's no wrong way to practice my open carry rights.'

Imagine them trying that most elsewhere, they'd get the cops called on them.

Even if "Open carry" is a right, that doesn't mean someone else isn't allowed to shoot you when you point a gun at them.

Also the cops note that the pair storming in like that caused members of the public to panic and flee, although you can't really see much in the video. I'm not sure Open Carry should include the right to cause terror and panic in other members of the public.

It says quite a lot that even I think they were in the wrong, and I am one of the most hard-line gun-rights people around.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2663 on: February 25, 2017, 12:04:31 am »

I agree.  It was a way much too much.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2664 on: February 25, 2017, 04:17:44 am »

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/son-of-legendary-boxer-muhammad-ali-detained-at-a-us-airport-questioned-about-being-a-muslim/news-story/2bf94804f0976d04d5077445431a742b

Now ... they detained Muhammad Ali Jnr (son of the boxer) and questioned him about being a Muslim.

Quote
officials questioned Ali Jr for nearly two hours, repeatedly asking him, “Where did you get your name from?” and “Are you Muslim?” Mancini says officials continued questioning Ali Jr after acknowledging he was Muslim.

Ali Jr was born in Philadelphia and holds a US passport.

US Customs and Border Protection officials say they “cannot discuss individual travellers but all international travellers arriving in the US are subject to CBP inspection”.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 04:21:19 am by Reelya »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2665 on: February 25, 2017, 04:48:52 am »

Someone has either fallen down on the whole "this isn't about Muslims" thing or (being generous, here) are actually purposefully performing a reductio ad absurdum deliberate piece of Jobsworth officiousness to help fuel their true feelings that this shouldn't be happening.


(Also, there's a possibility that this would have happened even before the Trump EO, as standard, if overblown, scrutiny, just it wouldn't have had the same newsworthy link...  And also, if the border guy had something against Ali Sr, etc, e.g. his dodging the draft, if not the obvious other bias...)
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Antioch

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2666 on: February 25, 2017, 05:03:14 am »

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/son-of-legendary-boxer-muhammad-ali-detained-at-a-us-airport-questioned-about-being-a-muslim/news-story/2bf94804f0976d04d5077445431a742b

Now ... they detained Muhammad Ali Jnr (son of the boxer) and questioned him about being a Muslim.

Quote
officials questioned Ali Jr for nearly two hours, repeatedly asking him, “Where did you get your name from?” and “Are you Muslim?” Mancini says officials continued questioning Ali Jr after acknowledging he was Muslim.

Ali Jr was born in Philadelphia and holds a US passport.

US Customs and Border Protection officials say they “cannot discuss individual travellers but all international travellers arriving in the US are subject to CBP inspection”.

"Where did you get your name from"

What kind of stupid question is that.
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palsch

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2667 on: February 25, 2017, 06:48:29 am »

Long but worth reading.

A group of Foreign Service officers have written to Lawfare for advice on how to proceed with their jobs (the Lawfare team do have substantial experience in this sort of thing, and are well respected in such circles). They believe the administration is ignoring evidence regarding their immigration ban and instead seeking only a post-hoc justification while still ignoring major sources of data for such information. Specifically;
Quote
We have questions about whether the administration analyzed records from the State Department or other agencies prior to forming this immigration policy. If those records have not been analyzed, that would tend to support the concerns voiced by intelligence officials in this article, who suggest the administration is seeking evidence to justify its policy, rather than crafting policy based on all available evidence. There is of course lots of sensitive data that is held within the federal government. But there is no need to even discuss that in order to illustrate the hypothesis that not all relevant government-held data is being consulted in the E.O. drafting process. There are plenty of databases the fact of which are matters of public record which represent at least the surface of what the Administration should be considering here.
They go on to describe the database that is used in the FSO to make visa determination - the Consular Consolidated Database - which ties into numerous law enforcement and intelligence community databases. Anyone who was paying attention during the Obama administration would remember these databases being tied into the FBI/DHS fingerprinting data (recently mentioned in the news as suspending refugees from Iraq, which was after two men's fingerprints were found to have been found on IEDs only after they had been granted access to the US).

They suggest that, based on their direct experience, this data will contradict the stated goals of the executive order and is either being ignored or has gone completely consulted, despite being the perfect source for the types of data such an EO would deal with. The conclude with the questions;
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With all this in mind, what obligations do FSOs have, if any, to highlight the existence of potentially relevant databases to civil servants and decisionmakers in other agencies? Any advice would be appreciated. Our views here are our own and not official State Department positions. To be clear, we are not taking a position on the policy, just seeking your advice about how to handle policy that appears to be being made without regard to known data.
The advice is largely measured. Use legal channels within the State Department to raise the concerns but be aware and ready to use the Dissent Channel if their concerns are ignored.
Quote
So, to put the matter bluntly, if the State Department does not itself raise the issue of these databases, we would certainly encourage Foreign Service officers concerned that relevant data are not being considered in the formulation of current policy to consider registering these concerns using the Dissent Channel. We would also encourage other Foreign Service officers to do what this group has done when going through channels to raise concerns fails—that is, to find ethical and appropriate manners of speaking out and raising concerns in fashions that do not breach obligations to the department. We do not offer this advice lightly. While there are formal protections for the Dissent Channel, any State Department employee will acknowledge career risks to using it. But the channel exists to allow officers to ensure critical but politically-unpopular views are not being excluded from important decision-making and to ensure that even very junior officials do not have to choose between safeguarding information and discharging their professional duties with integrity.
As for enforcing the policy, if an officer doesn't believe they can ethically carry out the EO when ordered to do so, the only reasonable remedy offered is resignation.
Quote
To the FSO who takes the view that he or she cannot in good conscience carry out policy developed without regard to facts, policy that will injure real people—many of them people threatened by extreme violence and some of them individuals to whom this country owes real debts and carries real obligations—we say only this: make your resignation worth something.
The piece goes on to say they are filing a FOIA request over whether these databases have been consulted and whether there is relevant information to the EO within them, as well as suggesting such information as a target for Congressional investigation and discovery in lawsuits over the EO, both of which have greater power than a FOIA request. They conclude with some direct advice for the government;
Quote
Finally, a note to the administration: Slow down. We don’t pretend to know whether this information has been studied in a serious fashion. But if it hasn’t, that is if this post is catching you off guard this morning, consider the possibility that it’s not because there’s some diabolical career-level “deep state” of Obama-loving resistors throughout the bureaucracy dedicated to undermining your policy. Consider the possibility that this is actually your own fault. You’re supposed to know about the existence of this sort of thing before you make policy. You are supposed to ask federal agencies to help identify such issues, and not exclude the people who are capable of doing so from the process to the extent that their only recourse is writing to us. If this post is the first you’ve ever heard of these databases, consider the possibility that you haven’t created a process that has sufficient integrity for you to do your job, or for officers like these people to do their jobs. This is not a leak. This is not a betrayal of the administration. It is the people inside the process flagging material that should not be ignored.

So we will conclude by flagging this matter on their behalf for the new National Security Adviser, Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster: Sir, we know you’re busy, but there are some databases at the State Department you’ll want to make sure get examined before any new executive order gets signed and implemented.
This is more of a glance behind the curtain than most of the leak stories going around, IMO, showing more the thought process and concerns of those who want to get information out because they believe the administration is acting out of the public interest. Usually you only get to see this kind of thing when the dust has settled and the books are written. This presidency is really not normal.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2668 on: February 25, 2017, 09:44:17 am »

@palsch: They speak as if Trump or any of his admin (other than McMaster perhaps) ever read the Lawfare blog, which there is no evidence of. Though it sounds like they have sent it off to the new Nat Sec advisor, McMaster.

Saw that article weeks ago, and yeah, backfired on them badly. It's like they were thinking 'there's no wrong way to practice my open carry rights.'

Imagine them trying that most elsewhere, they'd get the cops called on them.

Even if "Open carry" is a right, that doesn't mean someone else isn't allowed to shoot you when you point a gun at them.

Also the cops note that the pair storming in like that caused members of the public to panic and flee, although you can't really see much in the video. I'm not sure Open Carry should include the right to cause terror and panic in other members of the public.

It says quite a lot that even I think they were in the wrong, and I am one of the most hard-line gun-rights people around.

Yeah, seems like their entire point was to cause a ruckus.

Also, the DNC is voting on their new chairperson today, so I guess we'll see how that goes.
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palsch

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2669 on: February 25, 2017, 11:34:05 am »

@palsch: They speak as if Trump or any of his admin (other than McMaster perhaps) ever read the Lawfare blog, which there is no evidence of. Though it sounds like they have sent it off to the new Nat Sec advisor, McMaster.

Trump did quote it in a tweet the other week... which was proof he doesn't read it.

But yeah, the blog has some reach in DC. The target is likely State Department staffers and I'd expect the seniors there are aware of it. I doubt they expect the policy makers in the administration to pay attention, but then I don't think they expect much from the policy makers in the administration at the moment.


Trump has dropped protection from deportation for the families of deployed military. I haven't seen a report of this actually happening yet, but given other cases I can believe it would. So far I've seen reports of the following being arrested by ICE for deportation;

- A woman who was at court to get a restraining order from her abuser, who is believed to be the one who reported her while he was in custody.
- A mother at sports practice, leaving her child still on the field. (Trying to find a source for this one, was in a tweet a few days ago)
- A woman attending an ICE check in as she had for the past six years.
- A woman in hospital waiting for emergency surgery for a brain tumour.

There has been at least one suicide among those being deported, and at least one man who was covered under the DREAM act has been arrested on the pretence that he is a gang member and is now subject of what proves to be a lengthy court battle. At the same time the LAPD have asked ICE not to call themselves police in the city in case it harms the reputation of the fucking LAPD.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned much is that Obama deported a lot of people because he focused on priority cases where they were likely to be deported, and did not clog the system up with every undocumented immigrant that ICE could pick up. If you flood the system with everyone then either you waste time processing people who are no threat and delay the removal of the dangerous criminals, or you weaken due process (which undocumented immigrants are still due, regardless of the beliefs of many) to speed things up and open the US up to lawsuits. Many of the people who are voluntarily returned (eg, no criminal record) end up being allowed back in after an appeal anyway, as with the woman who had been checking in with ICE above.

A good piece on Obama's policies, including the focus on new arrivals and criminals. Essentially he was working to actually secure the boarder and remove dangerous criminals, while not breaking up communities and families inside the US. This was alongside offering paths to citizenship or at least legal residency to some of the undocumented. The policies weren't exactly perfect, and many of the fixes came late in his time as president, but at least he had a coherent policy with measured goals.
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