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[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
4maskwolf: Persus13
Deus Asmoth: hector13, TheDarkStar
doll: Leafsnail
hector13: Deus Asmoth
Leafsnail: 4maskwolf, doll, TheBiggerFish, webadict


Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Thursday. There are no more Extensions remaining for this day.

[webadict]

I expect him to be consistant. I expect him to try and find a solution. I expect him not to value his own life over the Town's win. I expect him to find scum. I expect him to assume there are some Town.

I expect a lot. But he didn't deliver on any of those. So now I expect him to die.

I gave him chances. He ran out of them.

Watch, he may very well be a Dopp Scientist with a double mind shield. He may be a Survivor. He may be any type of Doppelganger. But there is no way he's Town.

[Leafsnail]

I found a solution. You just chose to ignore it.

[webadict]

I found a solution. You just chose to ignore it.

What if you're a Dopp with a double Mind Shield?

I've got a closet full of lemons for you to suck on.

[TheBiggerFish]

How would a Dopp get a double mind shield?

[Leafsnail]

If I'm a scientist and I have a natural mind shield and I made a shitty tech choice yeah, I guess I could be scum without DA.

I think you'll admit that's very unlikely though.

[webadict]

If I'm a scientist and I have a natural mind shield and I made a shitty tech choice yeah, I guess I could be scum without DA.

I think you'll admit that's very unlikely though.

So is every option you've thrown out. Which is why I don't care about anything you say. I'd rather see you die.

[TheDarkStar]

I see a problem with plans involving waiting to use the assassin bot. Namely, if the scum just so happened to have one and knew who I gave the assassin bot to they could use their assassin bot on that person. That would both bypass protections and kill someone otherwise unreachable with also removing a town-sided nightkill.

Basically, I'm hesitant to not just kill someone tonight.

[hector13]

PFP

I'm with TDS there. The only piece of tech he needs to trade is the shield, as it's going to be publicly announced when the bot gets used anyway.

I also don't see the point of killing Leafsnail over DA right now.

A town Leafsnail flip doesn't do anything for the town's read at large on DA. He could still be scum. If DA flips Town, we know he was telling the truth about Leafsnail - which doesn't necessarily clear him, but whatever - and TBF.

[doll]

I see a problem with plans involving waiting to use the assassin bot. Namely, if the scum just so happened to have one and knew who I gave the assassin bot to they could use their assassin bot on that person. That would both bypass protections and kill someone otherwise unreachable with also removing a town-sided nightkill.

Basically, I'm hesitant to not just kill someone tonight.

...
Assassination bot does not bypass Combat Shield.
There is no situation listed where a player with an assassination both does not either have the shield or use the bot that night.
Please actually read the action proposed before commenting on it.

A town Leafsnail flip doesn't do anything for the town's read at large on DA. He could still be scum.

This literally does not matter.
Going forward with the initial assumption that Tiruin and TDS are town, the plan eliminates every player who is not mechanically clear.
If you have an actual problem with the actual plan, actually voice it.
If you have no actual problem with the actual plan, please don't comment on unrelated plays.

[hector13]

The doll-4maskwolf Initiative for solving Paranormal 25, 6th amendment
Lynch Leafsnail D3.

I don't think this is the best lynch choice. A matter of opinion.

Tiruin boops doll D3.

Neither you nor 4mask are cleared of being scum, you should not be deciding who Tiruin boops. Tiruin should not reveal which of the unconfirmed players she boops, so as to avoid the scum being able to work around it and using the non-booped partner for the NK.

TheBiggerFish lowers alert N3.
Deus Asmoth mindscans TheBiggerFish N3.

If TBF is town, he gets NK'd in this instance, meaning town!DA wastes their investigation. If TBF is scum, DA gets murdered in the night so they can't actually share what they find out. The scum could indulge in some WIFOM, and murder town!DA to implicate town!TBF, killing two birds with one stone, and making us waste a lynch.

DA's role is very limited here, considering 4mask and webadict have claimed roles with kill goals, basically making it a lot easier to narrow down who he's going to investigate and having that be wasted.

Given you seem to think the best course of action is also a guard chain focused on Tiruin, he probably won't be able to get an investigation off regardless!

TheDarkStar gives the shield to Tiruin and the assassination bot to Tiruin N3 - this protects her from scum Assassination bots.

Fine except giving away the bot. I think it's an unnecessary step.

N4 Tiruin gives the shield to hector13 and either uses the bot or gives it to hector13.

Why not give the shield to me N3, cut out the middle man? Frankly it would probably be better on Persus anyway, allowing him to stop all NKs on Tiruin for N3 and 4.

If TDS is the scumkill and dies, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin, a scanned TBF, webadict, DA, 4mask, and a booped doll. Lynch DA and bot-kill 4mask (TBF clear) or TBF (TBF scum). Lynch confirmed scum (doll-webadict) or boop webadict then no-lynch until the shield breaks (lynch doll, or lynch confirmed scum if doll died) or doll (if still alive) dies (lynch confirmed scum).

If doll is the scumkill, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin-TDS, a scanned TBF, webadict, DA and 4mask. Lynch DA and bot-kill 4mask. Lynch TBF (if TBF is not clear) or lynch webadict (if TBF is clear).

If Deus Asmoth is the scumkill, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin-TDS, a booped doll, webadict, TBF and 4mask. Lynch 4mask and bot-kill TBF, then proceed to no-lynch until scum are forced out as per the TDS scenario.

If TBF is the scumkill, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin-TDS, webadict,  a booped doll, DA, and 4mask. Lynch DA and botkill 4mask, then proceed according to TDS scenario.

If something unexpected happens, figure it out at that time I guess.

If TDS fails to hand over the tech, he's scum and get's lynched first, then DA, then non-clears until the doll-webadict stall endgame. If hector's shield breaks or a shieldless hector dies, lynch doll.

If hector13 ever dies to a scumkill, lynch doll.

doll is the likely NK for N3. TDS' flip clears a townie. Town!DA is under intense pressure so scum aren't going to let a scapegoat go quietly into the night. Scum!doll is meant to be at the end of the guard chain, so a hector NK would out them as obvscum. Three claimed war vets who the scum probably won't even try to go near.

A town Leafsnail flip doesn't do anything for the town's read at large on DA. He could still be scum.

This literally does not matter.

Looking at it the other way, a DA lynch provides information on Leafsnail and TBF.

Presently, lynching Leafsnail or DA and them flipping scum probably wins the game for town, as we botkill the other in the night.

If Leafsnail flips town, it tells us nothing about DA's alignment.

If DA flips town, we can be more comfortable in Leafsnail's survivor goal (though it doesn't guarantee he's not scum) and we know TBF has a killing goal, so he should probably be NK'd in the night.

So yes, it literally does matter. DA's lynch gets more information in the game, and considering that's something we need to decide who we lynch later, I cannot understand why a Leafsnail lynch is preferable.

The bot's existence has been revealed, and we know where it's going to go. Scum don't want it to be in the game, so it needs to be used ASAP, but preferably on a target the town can agree on. We don't know what roles the scum have, we should be expecting the worst.

Going forward with the initial assumption that Tiruin and TDS are town, the plan eliminates every player who is not mechanically clear.

As I said, you're not a great person to boop given that you're probably going to get NK'd on N3. It would be better on 4mask, webadict or TBF, depending on flips.

Your plan has holes in it. The fact you don't seem to see them is terrifying.

[doll]

You're talking about 'more suspicious' or 'less suspicious' but there is no such thing.
There are players who are scum and players who are not.

You've not addressed a single scenario presented.
If a scenario presented would not result in a win, explain why.
Otherwise, you have not explained why the plan will not end in a town victory.
That's what matters; the ending.
Not lynching scum right now, but lynching scum before the game ends.
If you can explain how the plan fails to do that, then you have a valid point.
Otherwise, please just take the win.
You're talking about passing the bot N3 like it's a risk, when the shield is being passed at the same time.
Stop it.
Your concern is valid if scum have two assassination bots - and they don't.
Lynching town!DA before he can scan someone does nothing to clear Leafsnail at all (as a voting player), and so gives us only the information that there are two non-Leafsnail scum voters in the game. Leafsnail still needs to be killed at some point because he isn't clear, and that breaks the ability of the actually clear players to become the voting majority.
Lynching town!Leafsnail has no negative impact and needs to be done because he can't be cleared. Leafsnail is literally the only useless player who serves only as an obstacle to reaching a clear town, and his play is the most disgusting and scummiest thing I've seen in four years. If this is his towngame, he shouldn't be playing mafia - it really is as simple as that; beyond merely gamethrowing, he's attacking the game and the players within it on a meta level, and the only purpose a mafia role has for that is if it doesn't want a co-ordinated town.
The bot is better off staying with Tiruin N3 rather than being used, even if DA is outed as non-town, since DA could still be a third party and she's safe with the bot.
There isn't any WIFOM to be had with DA dying while scanning a guard, since the lynch order is predetermined and guaranteed to result in a town victory.
The tracker goes on doll because it does nothing on webadict/4mask except confirm them as scum ... at times where they are the only candidate for scum.
Deus Asmoth is dead by the end of D4, so doll is the only non-clear candidate for the tracker which isn't strictly 100% useless.
You've made inferences about implications which can be drawn about players and called them holes in a clockwork plan.
It doesn't matter whether or not a player is scummy if they are cleared or killed before the game ends.

Decide whether or not TDS and Tiruin are town, then stop hunting and think about the plan in purely mechanical terms. If you can find a flaw, let us know. Otherwise, just follow along and take the win.

[doll]

EBWOP:
Literally the reason I am saying to hold onto the Assassination bot (which is safe with a shield and a heroic protect) is that it allows confirmed scum to be killed using information from a D4 DA lynch.
The shield absolutely clears TDS in Tiruin's eyes and stops Tiruin from dying. hector13 gets the shield later only because he isn't strictly clear until TDS is and that requires passing the shield to Tiruin.

[Leafsnail]

PFP. You've conceded that eg Mind Control Ray would result in a scum victory under your plan. Your scum victory, even.

No amount of theory crafting will change the simple fact that lynching me today is wrong and will put the town in a weaker position going forwards. Any plan that involve lynching a Survive result at the start is necessarily worse than a plan that doe not make that mistake. Your justification is nonsense and you have refused to even consider scenarios where we make  different lynch today. Deus Asmoth would clearly be better.

If you are town you are a catastrophically bad player. Worse than TBF, maybe worse than a hypothetical player who doesn't post at all. Questioning whether you're clear and defending themselves (with mechanical basis, even) does not make someone scum.

[Tiruin]

Quickpost/PFP before reading up:
LEafsnail--Have you claimed your role and the usual things with it (what you did/why you did/who you targeted/etc)?

@Hector/the rest: I do believe doll is being suggestive rather than explicitly ordering when he talks about me in the planning point I would however really advocate for discussion there rather than poking me being ordered. Meph is notified.
That, and I'm really grateful he used my silliness there. ._.;

Meph: Is there a day time extension if someone dies during the day for any reason whatsoever?

If you are town you are a catastrophically bad player. Worse than TBF, maybe worse than a hypothetical player who doesn't post at all. Questioning whether you're clear and defending themselves (with mechanical basis, even) does not make someone scum.

Err ._. While I understand the possible stress you may be under, the wording and how you talk about it may not really help at all. Moreso being the general warning without specifics (or even subtle hints on why said specifics can't be made known) about a possibly weaker town without you. :O