Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sver]

I don't mind at all. I mean, my mod has long broke out of the "vanilla, but better" approach and only strays from it farther and farther. This goes contrary to the Revised approach, as I myself consider Revised to be essential for playing vanilla-style DF at all, whilst my mod is for combat connoisseurs mostly.

As such, my mod will continue to be compatible with Revised 
..That is, when I finally get to finish all the big things for the next update.

[Taffer]

Modifying the SCALE_TEMPLATE to include the LEATHER token and MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SCALE prevents the need of a new scale_leather template.  When butchered, your tanners will simply tan the raw scale into "Creature" scale.  Then your dwarfs can run around with *alligator scale trousers* with only the addition of two tokens to one material template.

Crap. I completely misread this. This works exactly as expected, I'm surprised nobody pointed out that I misunderstood you. Apologies Wannabehero. You live up to your name again. The next version will have tannable scale again (only for large creatures).

[Darkond2100]

Fantastic, it sounds great! I'll start merging the changes with Meph's tileset next weekend.

[Flying Teasets]

May I suggest making stoneware magma safe?

[Shonai_Dweller]

So, Toady just confirmed today that kill_neutral ethics are the decider for alliances in the next version, which means if Goblins lose kill_neutral:required (as I think this mod does) they won't have alliances form against them and could potentially form alliances with elves, dwarves and humans against zombie apocalypses (I assume this mod doesn't adjust necromance ethics).

That's kind of cool, but does take the game a little further away from vanilla than the mod probably intends.

[Taffer]

May I suggest making stoneware magma safe?

Why?

So, Toady just confirmed today that kill_neutral ethics are the decider for alliances in the next version, which means if Goblins lose kill_neutral:required (as I think this mod does) they won't have alliances form against them and could potentially form alliances with elves, dwarves and humans against zombie apocalypses (I assume this mod doesn't adjust necromance ethics).

That's kind of cool, but does take the game a little further away from vanilla than the mod probably intends.

Thank you kindly for the report. I've been on a sabbatical recently from Dwarf Fortress; this is exactly the kind of report I need. I'll revert that change.

[Flying Teasets]

May I suggest making stoneware magma safe?

Why?

Stoneware is made from fire clay, a refractory material resistant to 1,600C+ temperatures.

EDIT: However, stoneware and firebrick seem to be made from two different varieties of fire clay, so maybe it should be split into two materials.

[Taffer]

I'm back. Here's what I've worked on so far: as is my custom I'm removing more than I'm adding. I want Revised to be rock solid and close to vanilla. I'm increasingly wary of changes that aren't intuitive.

• Gut thread is no longer a thing. It was a neat little feature, but I disliked seeing gut clothing.
• Elves now have inherent skill in animal training, animal care, archery, dodging, situational awareness, woodcraft, and sneaking. This is the only addition so far.
• Elves don't use greatarrows anymore, only regular arrows. They still wield wooden maces and wooden mauls instead of wooden swords. I might revert that too. Wooden blunt weapons make more sense than wooden edged weapons, but wooden swords have a "rule of cool" sort of feel to them.
• Humans are no longer ambushers.
• Goblins and subterranean creatures now have KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED again, like vanilla. I think it's stupid, but I'll defer to the next version.
• All of the accumulated attack changes from DF Wanderer and Coherent Weapons are removed. I never tested them well. I kept half-sword attacks with longswords. Whips are still weakened. Revised is still full of other little combat improvements (for better or for worse).

I'm still thinking things over. I still have Sver's material changes and I haven't exactly tested those, but my gut tells me they're fine. I just don't know if I trust my gut. My gut also told me tons of poorly-tested weapon attack changes sounded like a swell idea. I almost eliminated gameplay changes as a goal to let me revert a shitload of other features, but I've settled for just whittling my mod down a little instead.

My primary focus is on improving how the game reads and what creatures look like, with a minor focus on fixing little bugs where it's reasonable. I'll wait and see where the other gameplay changes end up. Dwarf Fortress will always be better documented than Revised will be, after all, and I'd argue that well-documented and understood vanilla gameplay is preferable to poorly-documented but mildly improved gameplay.

I have a to-do list for Revised I'd like to whittle down a little, so hopefully there'll be a few more additions for people. I'll try not to be a total killjoy. Given how many mods in the forums add tons and tons of stuff to the game, I'm guessing I'm in the minority for preferring minimalism.

[flyteofheart]

"animal people and giant animals that spawn in pools spawn in lakes instead"

Maybe im dumb, but what exactly is a lake in DF? I dont know that iv ever embarked on one. Which would mean I would never see any of the giant animals / animal people. Is a lake a defined thing or just a bigger pool?

Also curious- you made elves and goblins mortal. Does this change worldgen significantly?

[Shonai_Dweller]

The problem with Natural_Skill, is that it doesn't work on Adventurers due to a bug. That leaves you having to roleplay as the one Elf who can't shoot and dodge like the others. Kind of annoying (I ignore it and grit my teeth with my personal mod because it is a lot of fun in Fortress, but then, I don't share my mod with hundreds of Adventurer loving fans).

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9280

[Sver]

The problem with Natural_Skill, is that it doesn't work on Adventurers due to a bug. That leaves you having to roleplay as the one Elf who can't shoot and dodge like the others. Kind of annoying (I ignore it and grit my teeth with my personal mod because it is a lot of fun in Fortress, but then, I don't share my mod with hundreds of Adventurer loving fans).

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9280

It can be worked around somewhat, by using the SKILL_LEARN_RATE token instead. As far as I could observe, it works on adventurers.

[Taffer]

"animal people and giant animals that spawn in pools spawn in lakes instead"

Maybe im dumb, but what exactly is a lake in DF? I dont know that iv ever embarked on one. Which would mean I would never see any of the giant animals / animal people. Is a lake a defined thing or just a bigger pool?

It's a biome. I have no doubt it makes those creatures spawn less overall, but it doesn't make sense to me for them to live around tiny ponds.

This change was inherited from the Modest Mod, so I've not actually tested it. I'll make sure this change is working as expected before my next release.

EDIT: after some thought and some reading I'll revert this change. Today's vision of savage regions is that the land mutates existing creatures into new forms, and therefore the giant and animal person variations should probably spawn in the same biomes their normal brethren do.

Also curious- you made elves and goblins mortal. Does this change worldgen significantly?

Not that I've noticed? I did tests before and after when I made the change and didn't notice anything that seemed off, but the numbers were all over the place. Let me know if you notice anything off. I'm intending to sit down and play again when my laptop gets back from repair, and I'll check then.

The problem with Natural_Skill, is that it doesn't work on Adventurers due to a bug. That leaves you having to roleplay as the one Elf who can't shoot and dodge like the others. Kind of annoying (I ignore it and grit my teeth with my personal mod because it is a lot of fun in Fortress, but then, I don't share my mod with hundreds of Adventurer loving fans).

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9280

Thank you so much for the report. I should have checked the bug tracker for NATURAL_SKILL before adding it. I'll do a better job at searching it going forward. I'm also intending to start playing again, which should help.

This also affects all of the new animal people skills, of course, but I might leave them: I don't think it will be as noticeable as it is on elves.

It can be worked around somewhat, by using the SKILL_LEARN_RATE token instead. As far as I could observe, it works on adventurers.

Great idea. Thank you. I'll switch it to SKILL_LEARN_RATE.

[Sver]

It's a biome. I have no doubt it makes those creatures spawn less overall, but it doesn't make sense to me for them to live around tiny ponds.

This change was inherited from the Modest Mod, so I've not actually tested it. I'll make sure this change is working as expected before my next release.

EDIT: after some thought and some reading I'll revert this change. Today's vision of savage regions is that the land mutates existing creatures into new forms, and therefore the giant and animal person variations should probably spawn in the same biomes their normal brethren do.

According to the wiki, non-vermin creatures fail to spawn in pools.

Also curious- you made elves and goblins mortal. Does this change worldgen significantly?

Not significantly, but there'll be occasional goblin/elven vampires, and a bit more necromancers of these races than usual.

[Taffer]

I'll be reverting all changes to PET, PET_EXOTIC, and mount changes (with the exception of the removal of amphibious mounts and possibly the change below). This was all inherited from the Modest Mod. My reasoning is that it makes Revised inconsistent with the DF wiki and I don't personally care much for the change. Let me know if you want this kept (it's literally why I'm posting about changes before I release).

I'm just trying to make sure Revised is (and stays) bug-free and surprise-free. If I'm threatening to get rid of anything you like, please speak up.

I'm not sure yet if I'll revert this related change:

slow creatures and creatures that curl up are also bad mounts

According to the wiki, non-vermin creatures fail to spawn in pools.

Great catch. Thank you. I'll test this out.

[Sver]

Let me know if you want this kept (it's literally why I'm posting about changes before I release).

Oh. Oh, well, let me think...

First of all I'd like to say that, playing Revised from the days when it was overwhelmingly bugfixes with just a bunch of modular quality-of-life reactions, I don't mind a more frugal approach to the changes. Even though some do enhance gameplay, imo, it is understandable that it's just not the core idea of this mod.

However, some features that might appear as excessive oftentimes serve as crutches for various things that are broken or shaky in the vanilla game, and those I'll always speak in favor of.

• Goblins and subterranean creatures now have KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED again, like vanilla. I think it's stupid, but I'll defer to the next version.

Think it's better to keep it until the actual game update comes out. It prevents a ton of adventure mode lag and loyalty troubles, and it's hard to say yet how long until the next DF release.

I'm still thinking things over. I still have Sver's material changes and I haven't exactly tested those, but my gut tells me they're fine.

I'd say you can't go wrong with keeping the force transfer related changes at least 
Without them the mechanic is really absurd.

I'll be reverting all changes to PET, PET_EXOTIC, and mount changes (with the exception of the removal of amphibious mounts and possibly the change below).

I don't precisely recall what changes these are, could you elaborate?
Other than the water buffalo one, which is not great, as it causes horse-like overpopulation in non-player sites. While we are at it, I'd also like to propose making horses not COMMON_DOMESTIC for this very reason.

• Elves don't use greatarrows anymore, only regular arrows. They still wield wooden maces and wooden mauls instead of wooden swords. I might revert that too. Wooden blunt weapons make more sense than wooden edged weapons, but wooden swords have a "rule of cool" sort of feel to them.

This is a different take, as it is very subjective, of course, but I would advice to pick a direction with elves that is one way or the other: true to vanilla or boosted to be actually effective in combat. The main problem with elven wood equipment isn't just its poor hitting power - mainly it's the fact that it breaks from few strikes, both ways. To boost the elves they'd need not only better weapons, but a material template change for wood to accompany that: and it would only be a safe boost if you go with edged weapons and properties, because stronger impact properties on wood would lead to unbreakable wooden shields.
The current weapon change doesn't really do much for elves, unless the goal is more about flavor (e.g. more sensible wooden weapons).