Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[smjjames]

In all the irony of ironies, the 'Trump effect', which is hurting the Peso, is actually starting to have the effect of increasing migration over the border, at least in the short term until Mexicos economy stabilizes or something. Though if Trump ends up screwing the 'economic order', all bets are off.

[martinuzz]

I've also heard that it was pretty heavy on giving corporations control. However, I don't know particularily much about it.

That's the ISDS I mentioned. Investor-State Dispute Settlement. LW described it pretty much. It gives corporations the power to sue governments for making descisions that hurt their company profits, like for instance, banning the export of toxic waste, switching to green energy , allowing a new expensive medicine for cancer patients (would hurt health insurance company profits), or putting in place anti-smoking laws, although the latter case was recently lost by Philip Morris, which sued Paraguay.

Democratic descision making would be severely hampered by the prospect of losing billions from the national budget to reimbursement claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement

[Strife26]

I've also heard that it was pretty heavy on giving corporations control. However, I don't know particularily much about it.

That's the ISDS I mentioned. Investor-State Dispute Settlement. LW described it pretty much. It gives corporations the power to sue governments for making descisions that hurt their company profits, like for instance, banning the export of toxic waste, switching to green energy , allowing a new expensive medicine for cancer patients (would hurt health insurance company profits), or putting in place anti-smoking laws, although the latter case was recently lost by Philip Morris, which sued Paraguay.

Democratic descision making would be severely hampered by the prospect of losing billions from the national budget to reimbursement claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement

I'm much happier with the nation-state remaining the fundamental unit of society. National sovereignty is one of the cornerstones of the current world. 

[martinuzz]

I dunno. I think that if you want to break the power of corporations, you would need to completely get rid of nations and globalize the world, at the very least at taxation and labour cost level, so corporations lose the power of 'if you don't please us we'll go invest our billions in another country with lower wages and better tax rules'.
I mean Trump can say what he want about getting manufacturing industrie and jobs back to the States, but do you really think many corporations are going to comply with that, just because Trump is such a popular guy? They didn't move their workforce to low labour cost countries for no reason.
If you're really unlucky, Trump is aware of that and his plan to fix it is to lower wages to comparable levels with third world countries. Enjoy your future in the sweat shops.

[smjjames]

I've also heard that it was pretty heavy on giving corporations control. However, I don't know particularily much about it.

That's the ISDS I mentioned. Investor-State Dispute Settlement. LW described it pretty much. It gives corporations the power to sue governments for making descisions that hurt their company profits, like for instance, banning the export of toxic waste, switching to green energy , allowing a new expensive medicine for cancer patients (would hurt health insurance company profits), or putting in place anti-smoking laws, although the latter case was recently lost by Philip Morris, which sued Paraguay.

Democratic descision making would be severely hampered by the prospect of losing billions from the national budget to reimbursement claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement

Interestingly, NAFTA has that kind of thing in there, does that mean that Mexican or Canadian (or other nations) companies can sue the US if Trump screws the world economy or something? I guess it might be the least objectionable use of ISDS, but it's still objectionable, especially without states being able to do the reverse to companies.

[Rolepgeek]

I've also heard that it was pretty heavy on giving corporations control. However, I don't know particularily much about it.

That's the ISDS I mentioned. Investor-State Dispute Settlement. LW described it pretty much. It gives corporations the power to sue governments for making descisions that hurt their company profits, like for instance, banning the export of toxic waste, switching to green energy , allowing a new expensive medicine for cancer patients (would hurt health insurance company profits), or putting in place anti-smoking laws, although the latter case was recently lost by Philip Morris, which sued Paraguay.

Democratic descision making would be severely hampered by the prospect of losing billions from the national budget to reimbursement claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement

I'm much happier with the nation-state remaining the fundamental unit of society. National sovereignty is one of the cornerstones of the current world.

Current world ain't the best it could be, you may have noticed.

That said, corporation-states becoming the fundamental unit of society is worse. I would really just like a decentralized world government with a few overarching rules, in a federal-ish system with plenty of checks and balances to try and put off the whole 'highest echelons of society fuck over everyone else for slight gains in order to win meaningless signalling games against the rest of the highest echelons of society". Probably won't ever really happen unless we find out there's extra terrestrial life and unite in the fact that we're human and they aren't.

[smjjames]

I dunno. I think that if you want to break the power of corporations, you would need to completely get rid of nations and globalize the world, at the very least at taxation and labour cost level, so corporations lose the power of 'if you don't please us we'll go invest our billions in another country with lower wages and better tax rules'.
I mean Trump can say what he want about getting manufacturing industrie and jobs back to the States, but do you really think many corporations are going to comply with that, just because Trump is such a popular guy? They didn't move their workforce to low labour countries for no reason.
If you're really unlucky, Trump is aware of that and his plan to fix it is to lower wages to comparable levels with third world countries. Enjoy your future in the sweat shops.

In order for that to really work though, wages would have to be roughly equal globally. There's also the whole automation that is going on, which is a factor that Trump can't control.

That said, corporation-states becoming the fundamental unit of society is worse. I would really just like a decentralized world government with a few overarching rules, in a federal-ish system with plenty of checks and balances to try and put off the whole 'highest echelons of society fuck over everyone else for slight gains in order to win meaningless signalling games against the rest of the highest echelons of society". Probably won't ever really happen unless we find out there's extra terrestrial life and unite in the fact that we're human and they aren't.

Isn't that what the UN was a (very loose) stab at? The global government thing.

[Strife26]

I've also heard that it was pretty heavy on giving corporations control. However, I don't know particularily much about it.

That's the ISDS I mentioned. Investor-State Dispute Settlement. LW described it pretty much. It gives corporations the power to sue governments for making descisions that hurt their company profits, like for instance, banning the export of toxic waste, switching to green energy , allowing a new expensive medicine for cancer patients (would hurt health insurance company profits), or putting in place anti-smoking laws, although the latter case was recently lost by Philip Morris, which sued Paraguay.

Democratic descision making would be severely hampered by the prospect of losing billions from the national budget to reimbursement claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement

I'm much happier with the nation-state remaining the fundamental unit of society. National sovereignty is one of the cornerstones of the current world.

Current world ain't the best it could be, you may have noticed.

That said, corporation-states becoming the fundamental unit of society is worse. I would really just like a decentralized world government with a few overarching rules, in a federal-ish system with plenty of checks and balances to try and put off the whole 'highest echelons of society fuck over everyone else for slight gains in order to win meaningless signalling games against the rest of the highest echelons of society". Probably won't ever really happen unless we find out there's extra terrestrial life and unite in the fact that we're human and they aren't.

Sure, it just requires America conquering the entire world, then rewriting the nations to be about equal in authority to modern US States, like we're in an Orson Card novel.

[martinuzz]

Probably won't ever really happen unless we find out there's extra terrestrial life and unite in the fact that we're human and they aren't.

Sadly, the short moment of realisation of all being one and the same species versus and alien intruder, and unison, would be quickly followed by us all being drafted into the planetary defense force and doing pushups in the mud until we are vapourized by the alien's death star.

[Baffler]

What justice is there in having some schmuck from Albania or some other random place have any say whatsoever in the Chile's internal affairs? None. People from different US states have trouble enough keeping up with what's going on with each other. Federating to any extent across the boundaries of a nation state is just going to bring onerous nonsense onto people. See the EU, where fiscal policy bolsters German interests (the most powerful nation in the union) at the expense of southern Europe.

[ChairmanPoo]

Probably won't ever really happen unless we find out there's extra terrestrial life and unite in the fact that we're human and they aren't.

Obviously you realize that "we are human and they aren't" has been the war cry of pretty much every slaver ever.

[smjjames]

What justice is there in having some schmuck from Albania or some other random place have any say whatsoever in the Chile's internal affairs? None. People from different US states have trouble enough keeping up with what's going on with each other. Federating to any extent across the boundaries of a nation state is just going to bring onerous nonsense onto people. See the EU, where fiscal policy bolsters German interests (the most powerful nation in the union) at the expense of southern Europe.

He said decentralized, and yeah, that's exactly the same kind of sentiment that the EU is running up against.

About the only reason that it works here is that there aren't any major nation-state ethnicities, the nation-state here is much more a shared idea than a shared ethnicity. edit2: To clarify, I mean that there aren't any major blocks or something.... eh, I've probably accidentially stuck my foot in mouth with this without meaning to.

edit: updated Baffler's quote.

[Loud Whispers]

I dunno. I think that if you want to break the power of corporations, you would need to completely get rid of nations and globalize the world, at the very least at taxation and labour cost level, so corporations lose the power of 'if you don't please us we'll go invest our billions in another country with lower wages and better tax rules'.
I mean Trump can say what he want about getting manufacturing industrie and jobs back to the States, but do you really think many corporations are going to comply with that, just because Trump is such a popular guy? They didn't move their workforce to low labour cost countries for no reason.
If you're really unlucky, Trump is aware of that and his plan to fix it is to lower wages to comparable levels with third world countries. Enjoy your future in the sweat shops.

Sounds like you're making the job of powerful corporations to consolidate their power even easier. There's a reason why they're all in favour of globalization; if they create the world order, it's gonna serve their interests by their design :P
To that end nation-states can attack them where they're most hurt: at the income level. Corporations require continuous growth, take that away and they crumble. Moreover nation states always retain the ability to rather simply kill corporations, and in Putinesque cases, kill oligarchs who threaten the nation. I really don't see how getting rid of nations does anything except remove the only social unit capable of resisting corporate power

[martinuzz]

Sounds like you're making the job of powerful corporations to consolidate their power even easier. There's a reason why they're all in favour of globalization; if they create the world order, it's gonna serve their interests by their design
To that end nation-states can attack them where they're most hurt: at the income level. Corporations require continuous growth, take that away and they crumble. Moreover nation states always retain the ability to rather simply kill corporations, and in Putinesque cases, kill oligarchs who threaten the nation. I really don't see how getting rid of nations does anything except remove the only social unit capable of resisting corporate power

You say a nation can attack a corporation where it hurts most. But why would a global institution not be able to do the same, with the difference being that the affected company has no refuge to move to?
I'd say nation states are a social unit that can be readily abused by corporate interests. Divide and conquer.

[smjjames]

The first WH 'press conference': http://www.vox.com/2017/1/21/14347812/trump-press-briefing-sean-spicer

Anybody else think we have yet to see the depths of pettiness? If his staff is going to enable his pettiness, I can only imagine foreign relations....