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[Shadowlord]

Four score and seven years ago, the Great Depression began.

Austerity doesn't work as a response to recession.

P.S. I deleted 95% of this post before posting it because I am not an economist. Though economists are basically modern witches or alchemists, so w/e.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Great Depression was in the 1930s and on, right? USSR's economy grew in that period, yes, but it was mainly due to heavy industrialization for the upcoming WW2. And raiding rurals for grain to sell on the world market, can't forget about that.

Yes, yes, the Soviet Union committed all sorts of human rights violations and outright genocides, but that's not the important thing here. Even all of the economies that are derided for "impoverishing people" are only described like that in comparison to the meteoric economic supremacy of the United States. And plenty of nations which allegedly did everything they were supposed to ultimately got pillaged for everything they had (most of Latin America and Africa) while some nations with stable economics got toppled for the sake of the Cold War. There's ultimately only one economy, but multiple methods to it.

I don't think anyone except Republicans think that nowadays.

Well you see, I sort of share a country with the Republicans. Their viewpoint inherently matters due to its popularity, even if it is wrong. Especially because there's no good opposition to it, only the Dems weakly protesting that their interference in the free market will do more good than harm.

Debt model is perfectly sustainable, as long as some sort of growth exists, and it will always exist, thanks to technology improving over time.

This right here is the kind of statement that throws me into twisting back and forth in frustration. The debt model begs for failure. Failure is incentivized and included in the very DNA of the debt model, which is borrow and borrow to fuel bubbles of economic action that are ultimately nothing, while boom and bust cycles fuck over everybody then brainwash them into thinking they're gaining. This is why Americans haven't gotten a functional pay raise in my entire lifetime.

Also, I don't see how decreasing overall efficiency of labor (which is what all disconnection and decentralization measures inevitably cause) will result in sustainability. And frugality doesn't really work at all, as seen by Europe and its "austerity" roller-coaster.

What we do now is not efficient. We're mere steps away from literally entering into paying people for fuck all. It's like how every company in the 80's had a whole circle of "vice-presidents" that were just collecting a paycheck because they were in good with the boss, except instead of rich people who can afford to lose out on that it's everybody. Doubly so for Americans, who have some of the lowest productivity per capita in the developed world. There have been extensive studies done on motivation and productivity in employees, and it turned out that giving them more money was one of the least effective things towards their actual work, but instead only encouraged them to remain employed.

Given that humanity has never actually abandoned the tribal mindset in our blood, that's no surprise. Everybody I know my age is desperately avoiding debt (I myself have miraculously remained debt free, I am the only person I know to have actually done so) in a world where the assumptions of the people in power are "ok, and NOW they buy houses and cars and children and spend the rest of their lives paying it off". Guess what, shit's not gonna happen in the numbers required.

And god, that's not even getting into automation. How do you have positive labor without laborers? No, our economic system always gets called capitalism for convenience and indoctrination, but it completely reinvents itself every couple decades. Neoliberlaism's time has come.

[Sergarr]

Debt model is perfectly sustainable, as long as some sort of growth exists, and it will always exist, thanks to technology improving over time.

This right here is the kind of statement that throws me into twisting back and forth in frustration. The debt model begs for failure. Failure is incentivized and included in the very DNA of the debt model, which is borrow and borrow to fuel bubbles of economic action that are ultimately nothing, while boom and bust cycles fuck over everybody then brainwash them into thinking they're gaining. This is why Americans haven't gotten a functional pay raise in my entire lifetime.

That's funny, because I see the opposite of that. The way debt model works has some striking analogies to the modern attempts at creating AI, and that's not a coincidence, in my opinion. It's the system of collective intelligence that accumulates our ability to predict and influence the world together. It doesn't always succeed, obviously, but you focus on its failures, while ignoring the tremendous, overwhelming successes it brought everywhere it touched.

We wouldn't even be able to have this conversation, if not for the debt economy fuelling myriads of technological start-ups that power up modern communication networks.

What we do now is not efficient. We're mere steps away from literally entering into paying people for fuck all. It's like how every company in the 80's had a whole circle of "vice-presidents" that were just collecting a paycheck because they were in good with the boss, except instead of rich people who can afford to lose out on that it's everybody. Doubly so for Americans, who have some of the lowest productivity per capita in the developed world. There have been extensive studies done on motivation and productivity in employees, and it turned out that giving them more money was one of the least effective things towards their actual work, but instead only encouraged them to remain employed.

And that's bad... how? Paying people for existing seems to be a natural consequence of increasing automation, so what's the problem with something like that starting to occur naturally?

Also, "lowest" productivity? I suspect that it's one of those misleading statistics, because USA is #1 in all spheres of technological and economical development, and it's hard to imagine how it would be so without Americans being the most productive people on Earth.

Given that humanity has never actually abandoned the tribal mindset in our blood, that's no surprise. Everybody I know my age is desperately avoiding debt (I myself have miraculously remained debt free, I am the only person I know to have actually done so) in a world where the assumptions of the people in power are "ok, and NOW they buy houses and cars and children and spend the rest of their lives paying it off". Guess what, shit's not gonna happen in the numbers required.

"Everyone I know is doing something" is an incredibly poor indicator of something happening in these days. The debt economy doesn't need consumers taking loans, anyway, businesses also do that, and probably in significantly greater quantities, too.

And god, that's not even getting into automation. How do you have positive labor without laborers? No, our economic system always gets called capitalism for convenience and indoctrination, but it completely reinvents itself every couple decades. Neoliberlaism's time has come.

Automation won't remove the low-skill service jobs for a while. The future economy will, most likely, consist of few people that can still do some work due to their extremely high professional skills, and the rest of people employed as Victorian-era-style servants catering to them. That's where the current trend goes, anyway. I've heard that personal servants are already a pretty often sight in middle-class households in Singapore and in Korea, it's only a matter of time and cultural tradition shift for it to spread into Europe and USA.

[smjjames]

Coal country Democrats lead charge towards government shutdown

As much as I don't want them to stoop to the level that the Republicans did, at least the Republicans are getting a taste of their own medicine.

Meahwhile, leader of the so-called California's secession movement... has links to pro-Putinist Anti-Globalist Movement of Russia. If there's a reason to not like that idea, here you have it, folks.

That seccessionist movement has likely died down already anyway.

The dems probably saw just how severely the voters punished the GOP for shutting down the government (by turning both houses and the presidency over to them), and decided that there was really no reason not to go ahead and, in the words of one republican who shall live in infamy, "shut that whole thing down." Briefly, anyways.

Except that they're risking the voters punishing the Democrats.

[scriver]

And god, that's not even getting into automation. How do you have positive labor without laborers? No, our economic system always gets called capitalism for convenience and indoctrination, but it completely reinvents itself every couple decades. Neoliberlaism's time has come.

Automation won't remove the low-skill service jobs for a while. The future economy will, most likely, consist of few people that can still do some work due to their extremely high professional skills, and the rest of people employed as Victorian-era-style servants catering to them. That's where the current trend goes, anyway. I've heard that personal servants are already a pretty often sight in middle-class households in Singapore and in Korea, it's only a matter of time and cultural tradition shift for it to spread into Europe and USA.

It sounds to me like what you're saying is that capitalism will fail miserably and impoverish the people stuck under it.

[Shadowlord]

And god, that's not even getting into automation. How do you have positive labor without laborers? No, our economic system always gets called capitalism for convenience and indoctrination, but it completely reinvents itself every couple decades. Neoliberlaism's time has come.

Automation won't remove the low-skill service jobs for a while. The future economy will, most likely, consist of few people that can still do some work due to their extremely high professional skills, and the rest of people employed as Victorian-era-style servants catering to them. That's where the current trend goes, anyway. I've heard that personal servants are already a pretty often sight in middle-class households in Singapore and in Korea, it's only a matter of time and cultural tradition shift for it to spread into Europe and USA.

It sounds to me like what you're saying is that capitalism will fail miserably be a massive success and impoverish render irrelevant the people stuck under it.

I mean, what did you think the point of capitalism was if not to make the rich richer than god, and leave the poor to die? <futurerichperson>GOD YOU LAZY BUMS DOWN ON EARTH, SO WHINY AND ENTITLED! "WAAH WE'RE DYING DOWN HERE WAAH." GOD. YOU MAKE ME SICK. PULL YOURSELVES UP TO OUR FULLY AUTOMATED ORBITAL LUXURY COLONY BY YOUR BOOSTRAPS LIKE THE REST OF US DID!</futurerichperson>

[Sergarr]

And god, that's not even getting into automation. How do you have positive labor without laborers? No, our economic system always gets called capitalism for convenience and indoctrination, but it completely reinvents itself every couple decades. Neoliberlaism's time has come.

Automation won't remove the low-skill service jobs for a while. The future economy will, most likely, consist of few people that can still do some work due to their extremely high professional skills, and the rest of people employed as Victorian-era-style servants catering to them. That's where the current trend goes, anyway. I've heard that personal servants are already a pretty often sight in middle-class households in Singapore and in Korea, it's only a matter of time and cultural tradition shift for it to spread into Europe and USA.

It sounds to me like what you're saying is that capitalism will fail miserably and impoverish the people stuck under it.

If we don't take any countermeasures like basic income, negative rate taxation, or some other kind of wealth equalization program, then yes, the "low-class" part of the population will be rather miserable.

Fortunately, the better parts of capitalistic countries have been engaged with doing wealth rebalancing thing for quite a while now (if only to suppress the communist movements), so it should not be that hard to implement them (IIRC Finland is about to test the basic income program), at least for countries not stuck with pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers, i.e. most Western countries, with the exception of USA.

It's what American exceptionalism is all about, after all - they're either the best, or the worst, with barely any ground in between.

[Dorsidwarf]

And god, that's not even getting into automation. How do you have positive labor without laborers? No, our economic system always gets called capitalism for convenience and indoctrination, but it completely reinvents itself every couple decades. Neoliberlaism's time has come.

Automation won't remove the low-skill service jobs for a while. The future economy will, most likely, consist of few people that can still do some work due to their extremely high professional skills, and the rest of people employed as Victorian-era-style servants catering to them. That's where the current trend goes, anyway. I've heard that personal servants are already a pretty often sight in middle-class households in Singapore and in Korea, it's only a matter of time and cultural tradition shift for it to spread into Europe and USA.

It sounds to me like what you're saying is that capitalism will fail miserably be a massive success and impoverish render irrelevant the people stuck under it.

I mean, what did you think the point of capitalism was if not to make the rich richer than god, and leave the poor to die? <futurerichperson>GOD YOU LAZY BUMS DOWN ON EARTH, SO WHINY AND ENTITLED! "WAAH WE'RE DYING DOWN HERE WAAH." GOD. YOU MAKE ME SICK. PULL YOURSELVES UP TO OUR FULLY AUTOMATED ORBITAL LUXURY COLONY BY YOUR BOOSTRAPS LIKE THE REST OF US DID!</futurerichperson>

So Elysium irl

[Phmcw]

Sergarr, everything about what you wrote is wrong.


Communist countries sometime enjoyed high standard of living.

Cuba is a developped country according to standard of living index, and that's despite the US's embargo. Cuba is communism's best case scenario, with cold war ear-tech... which also showcase the issue with communism : the centralized everything tend to create totalitarian states.


The US didn't rise to the top because they were the best at everything.
The US domination is a product of the XXem century. In WW1, the US gained a inconceivable amount of money selling weapon and supplies to the allies. At the end of the war, the allies were seriously indebted to the US, and they could get what they wanted.


At the end of WW2, the US were rich beyond imagination, had taken all the best German scientist (which were the best in the world) and the bast among them even migrated before the war because an huge number of the History's best scientist were German jews, (Von Neumann, Einstein,  Weyl, Max Born...). The Dollars became the world's reserve currency and it became the leader of a group that included every richest nation on earth.


In addition to that the country have a low population compared to his size, and thus huge natural resources, and a very defensible position.


Finally it defend big business's interest so have the support of industrialist world-wide, and they tend to be richer than the oppressed masses.


However, the US's own population's living condition are rather poor : Access and the quality of education and health-care is low for a developed nation. Infant mortality is high, worker's right are very low compared to any other industrialized nations, Median wage is low, especially compared to average wage, public services such as public transport are all but non-existent, incarceration rate is the highest in the world, democracy is almost non existent, policing is appealingly violent,...

[TempAcc]

I like how the high standard of ~communism~ nowadays is represented by the country that most recently employed concentration camps.

Because statistics comming out of dictatorships are reliable, specially one that has never allowed indepedent verification of health and social data.

Seriously though, why are all the statistics thrown around about cuba and venezuela so fancy dandy, and yet all personal accounts of every single person that escaped those regimes paint a much different picture? Cuba did flourish during the 70s and 80s because it was an important strategic point for the soviets, and thus got subsidies. When the soviet union imploded, things got real pretty damn quickly, at least if you care for actual cuban accounts, with Yoani Sánchez being one of the most popular. Cuba's magical health system has been is in a state of constant collapse since before this decade.

Hell, even Hugo Chavez died shortly after returning from getting treated in cuba, despite public announcements made by Chavez himself saying the doctors said he would make a great recovery.

[Phmcw]

I like how the high standard of ~communism~ nowadays is represented by the country that most recently employed concentration camps.

Because statistics comming out of dictatorships are reliable, specially one that has never allowed indepedent verification of health and social data.

Seriously though, why are all the statistics thrown around about cuba and venezuela so fancy dandy, and yet all personal accounts of every single person that escaped those regimes paint a much different picture? Cuba did flourish during the 70s and 80s because it was an important strategic point for the soviets, and thus got subsidies. When the soviet union imploded, things got real pretty damn quickly, at least if you care for actual cuban accounts, with Yoani Sánchez being one of the most popular. Cuba's magical health system has been is in a state of constant collapse since before this decade.

Because Cuba isn't north Corea, European countries have diplomatic relation and can send observers pretty easily.

Venezuela is dead, and I didn't downplay the danger and defect of communists regimes : they are perfect breeding ground for human right abuse, and the state's ability to implement radical reform is a well documented double-edged sword. Actually a radioactive, poisonous, flammable and possibly explosive double edged sword given some of the well know results of some of those policies.


But it's important to take the actual lesson of history, and not just to swallow propaganda.

[wobbly]

policing is appealingly violent,...

I suspect you meant to use a different word there, though perhaps not

[Phmcw]

Seriously? Appealing and appalling have opposite meaning? DAMN YOU AMERICA!


See, even their language is evil and plotting to trick me, I rest my case.

[Guardian G.I.]

Fortunately, the better parts of capitalistic countries have been engaged with doing wealth rebalancing thing for quite a while now (if only to suppress the communist movements), so it should not be that hard to implement them (IIRC Finland is about to test the basic income program), at least for countries not stuck with pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers, i.e. most Western countries, with the exception of USA.

pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers

Jesus H. Christ, what happened to you, Sergarr? Such amount of moralizing would make both Bush Jr. and Reagan sick! 

P.S. To me, the words "pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers" look just as bombastic as "fully automated luxury gay space communism"

[smjjames]

pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers

Trump hasn't actually done anything yet that would label him as a warmonger.