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[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

Liberals are generally secular and conservatives are generally religious, yes, but there's plenty of both on either side.

And yeah, we need to chill out some in this thread before it really gets out of hand.

Sure, let's chill.

You know who annoys me? The atheist equivalent of SJWs. The 0.001% of atheists who will fly into a raeg if you tell them Merry Christmas. They give us all a bad name.

It's all an argument. Treat it like an argument. How do you exploit someone making a fallacy in an argument without merely calling them out on the fallacy?

"That's a fallacy..." then what? "Also you're wrong"?

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

Consider picking up a good book on the techniques of argument and rhetoric in a non-formal setting. Thank you for Arguing is one such book, and the one I recommend.

Thanks, it seems like a good and useful book, I'll see if my library system has it. (Thank Armok for a statewide library sharing network, or I'd go insane from lack of reading.)

[smjjames]

Oh god, he actually said that?

(Googling 'trump says hillary clinton won popular vote fraud' brings up three news sites reporting the exact same thing and at least one cites his Twitter.)

Why, Trump.  Why.

(make it stop)

It gets better worse: Link to CNN transcipt of the interview with someone from Trump team:

And so he said he wouldn’t rule it out. He said it’s just not his focus right now. I think he’s being quite magnanimous and at the same time he’s not undercutting at all the authority and the autonomy of the Department of Justice, of the FBI, of the House Committees, who knows where the evidence may lead if, in fact, it were — if the investigation were re-opened somewhere.

But this is the president-elect’s position right now and I would say he has been incredibly gracious and magnanimous to Secretary Clinton at a time when for whatever reason her folks are saying they will join in a recount to try to somehow undo the 70 plus electoral votes that he beat her by. I mean this — you know, I was asked on CNN and elsewhere, goodness a thousand times, will Donald Trump accept the election results? And now you’ve got the Democrats and Jill Stein saying they do not accept the election results. She congratulated him and conceded to him on election night. I was right there. And the idea that we are going to drag this out now where the president-elect has been incredible y magnanimous to the Clintons and to the Obamas is incredible.

It could be interpreted as a threat to prosecute Clinton if the recount doesn't stop.

I wonder why Trump is so nervous about that recount, though. Could it be because an investigation would reveal evidence of FSB agents hacking voting machines, hmmm?

Or more likely he is just scared he'll lose, which is extremely unlikely unless some evidence of hacking crops up. He did the same thing before the election when he thought he wasn't going to win.

[Phmcw]

He's getting free point with the Republicans : the recount isn't even asked by the democrats as they dismissed the arguments for it.
Stein thought that it never harm to "trust but verify" and launched the initiative herself, and Trump, knowing that nothing would come out of it, used the opportunity to double down on how anti-system and daring he is.


Worst is : Democrats set themselves up for it with blowing his comment on accepting the election results out of proportion.

[Phmcw]

Equally, it's just as valid to say that Clinton and her camp are hypocrites given all the 'Donald won't accept the result!' fearmongering they did that Phmcw is referring to here.

And Clinton asked for a recount when? Or anyone of importance in the Democratic party?

[Elephant Parade]

Didn't she come out in support of the recount recently or something?

Her campaign is taking part in it, but apparently it's normal for all involved parties to do that? I don't think she's said that she's expecting a change in the results.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

It is somewhat odd that the exit polls match up with the pre-election polls, though, while the election itself veers unexpectedly to the right. It could be the un-PC effect, it could be fraud, who knows.

I have always thought it suspicious that the elections vary from the pre-election polls by within the margin of error, but usually favouring Republicans.

[Elephant Parade]

Still, I'd say that all of this calling for a recount is a bit ridiculous.

I dunno. There are three contributing factors:

• Fears that Russian hackers (who have allegedly acted before to influence this election, albeit not nearly as directly) messed with electronic voting machines
• A 7% popular vote difference between paper ballots and electronic voting machines
• A significant difference between the results of exit polls and the actual vote

Combined, I think that these might justify a recount. Am I expecting them to find anything? No, but it's reasonably possible.

[smjjames]

It is somewhat odd that the exit polls match up with the pre-election polls, though, while the election itself veers unexpectedly to the right. It could be the un-PC effect, it could be fraud, who knows.

I have always thought it suspicious that the elections vary from the pre-election polls by within the margin of error, but usually favouring Republicans.

Bias on the part of the pollsters could explain some of that.

Yes, the recount is a bit ridiculous as it's extremely unlikely to change anything, but it's more of a 'lets look into this anomaly' thing than a 'I challenge the results' kind of thing.

Also, a federally mandated (and done correctly) audit of the votes would likely have allayed some of the uncertainity.

[PTTG??]

Totally unrelated, why are there no Democrats on the national stage who are under 70?

[Phmcw]

Because we had not uncovered any actionable evidence of hacking or outside attempts to alter the voting technology, we had not planned to exercise this option ourselves, but now that a recount has been initiated in Wisconsin, we intend to participate in order to ensure the process proceeds in a manner that is fair to all sides.]Because we had not uncovered any actionable evidence of hacking or outside attempts to alter the voting technology, we had not planned to exercise this option ourselves, but now that a recount has been initiated in Wisconsin, we intend to participate in order to ensure the process proceeds in a manner that is fair to all sides.


From their press release. They didn't ask for it, clearly and stress that they don't have a cause.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

A 7% popular vote difference between paper ballots and electronic voting machines

Nooooo, that's not a thing, they forgot to account for demographical differences. Confounding factors and whatnot.

Because we had not uncovered any actionable evidence of hacking or outside attempts to alter the voting technology, we had not planned to exercise this option ourselves, but now that a recount has been initiated in Wisconsin, we intend to participate in order to ensure the process proceeds in a manner that is fair to all sides.


From their press release. They didn't ask for it, clearly and stress that they don't have a cause.

That doesn't actually have a url...

[Phmcw]

Now it has.

[smjjames]

If Trump is so concerned about rigging, why doesn't he have the Republicans go and observe the proccess, if only to 'make sure that the dirty liberals don't rig THAT proccess up'? It smacks of hypocrisy to blame the Dems for rigging when he won.

[uber pye]

If Trump is so concerned about rigging, why doesn't he have the Republicans go and observe the proccess, if only to 'make sure that the dirty liberals don't rig THAT proccess up'? It smacks of hypocrisy to blame the Dems for rigging when he won.

I think now Trump is afraid that they are calling for a recount so they can temper with the vote.