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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1424026 times)

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9030 on: October 30, 2016, 09:07:30 pm »

Don't vote for Ms. Flower Power Anti-Vaxxination.
Seriously, anybody who doesn't take a hard stance on anti-vaxxer shitbaggery needs to get the fuck out of society, never mind running for office. Do you like dead babies and toddlers with whooping cough?

[SouthParkGrapes]Member polio? Member smallpox?[/SouthParkGrapes]

I wasn't thinking of it as a vote for Stein, but rather the Green party in general to attempt to help get it past 5%. But then again, she barely stays above 2% in most state polls where Johnson is almost always 5% or more.

I could just abstain my presidential vote, but arg, I don't want Trump getting in the White House.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9031 on: October 30, 2016, 09:10:51 pm »

I could just abstain my presidential vote, but arg, I don't want Trump getting in the White House.
Well, being that it's California, write-in yourself as President and make sure you make good choices for the legislative, state, local, and referendum votes.
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PTTG??

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9032 on: October 30, 2016, 09:22:55 pm »

Among the four main US parties, nobody has a firm stance against antivax. Trump is, personally, antivax; Johnson says the government shouldn't mandate vaccines because he is a social darwinist; Jill Stein is fluttery on the concept, although she's not as antivax as Trump is; Hillary has, as one of her medical advisors, a doctor Mark Hyman, who is a firm antivaxxer.

Nonetheless, if you're a single-issue voter regarding vaccines, then Hillary is your option. However, as a strategic Californian, a vote for Jill Stein can't hurt, and might remind the Democrats that they're supposed to be the liberals.

There is a special kind of terror in researching "Bernie Sanders Vaccines" and finding countless breathless blogs, disappointed that he has some idea about the nature of medical science.

There are few people I despise more than antivax people. To be born with all the advantages of western science and society, to be raised with modern medicine's benefits and full access to education, to have at one's fingertips a direct link to the largest connection of real science ever accumulated in human history, and to use that to spread superstitious nonsense to no end but to revitalize preventable disease is, to me appalling.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 09:34:45 pm by PTTG?? »
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9033 on: October 30, 2016, 09:27:47 pm »

Don't vote for Ms. Flower Power Anti-Vaxxination.
Seriously, anybody who doesn't take a hard stance on anti-vaxxer shitbaggery needs to get the fuck out of society, never mind running for office. Do you like dead babies and toddlers with whooping cough?

[SouthParkGrapes]Member polio? Member smallpox?[/SouthParkGrapes]

I'd recommend a documentary to you called 'The Kids Who Can't Stay Awake'. It's an interesting watch.

EDIT: Here's a brief clip. I believe the whole thing is available online.
I'd rather find a better source: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/influenza/pandemic/h1n1_safety_assessing/narcolepsy_statement/en/

In short, there is a genetic cause of narcolepsy which has an increased rate of becoming active if that vaccine is used.

That's vastly different from pieces of shit like McCarthy talking about "zomg, muh bebe had tha brainism cuz shotz and I crystal bullshit magic kyurz him!" and encouraging people to chip away at herd immunity. A small number of cases in exchange for maintaining herd immunity is an acceptable risk, the alternative involves the fun little word "epidemic" or maybe their sexy cousin "pandemic" if you're really lucky.

So no, fuck anti-vaxxers, every one, get the fuck out of society if you would rather listen to some bimbo over scientific facts.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9034 on: October 30, 2016, 09:47:18 pm »

It's not an individual risk. It's a collective one. Why should a person's parents be allowed to decide not only if they will be at put at risk of illness, permanent damage, and death, but also everybody who is unable to receive vaccines?
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9035 on: October 30, 2016, 09:48:15 pm »

Just so that it's clear, I'm not an anti-vaxxer.

The thing with the vaccine triggering narcolepsy in those with the genetic prediposition to it is certainly strange.

As far as the whole 'vaccines cause autism' thing which was the main driver of the anti-vaxxer movement goes, the causes of autism are complex and not fully understood yet (other than a variable genetic component) and the vaccine cause was debunked anyway.

We can't ethically just not vaccinate a large control group to see whether they develop autism or not anyway.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9036 on: October 30, 2016, 09:54:21 pm »

The supposed autism-causing mercury-containing preservative has been largely phased out. Unless the concept of "give weakened/dead germs to people, let their immune systems get prepared" itself causes autism, that theory been thoroughly disproven.

SCIENCE. It works, bitches.

As for the personal freedom of vaccinations, that's a tricky topic, but to poke at everything I'd like to describe an example or two.

Suppose that Person A carries an extremely virulent and infectious disease that will eventually kill everybody it spreads to. Certainly the government is allowed, nay, obligated, to restrict Person A's movement and activity for the safety of the people. And if there is a cure, then there might be a choice of "get cured, or stay in quarantine forever."

But why? Isn't it his choice? It's not. It affects everyone around him.

Similarly, if Person B chooses not to get vaccinated, he threatens everyone around him. Not that much for a single Person B, and a healthy and vaccinated individual, but sick, young, or old people are at significant risk of acquiring Person B's disease that he chose not to get vaccinated for.

But it gets worse. If there are two people, Person B1 and Person B2, we have more than double the risk. Why? Because vaccines aren't perfect. The more infected people, the faster a disease can spread, the greater the chance of it becoming a problem. Every person counts. For the good of everybody, everybody who can get vaccinated should.

What about those who legitimately cannot be vaccinated for a disease, for, say, a medical reason? That's okay. The herd immunity can take a few holes. But when we start having the ignorant people saying "muh babies will get the brainproblems, bettah not get them vaxinaeted," they turn into walking breeding grounds for all the diseases we just nearly killed.



See that? How much of that was due to vaccination? How many lives were saved?! Millions of people have been saved by vaccines. They form an integral part of our health system. Furthermore, they are preventative. This means that they aren't as significantly affected by the greed overtaking the US health-care system. Vaccines are good and necessary and anybody who disagrees with me should be burnt at the stake!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 10:10:15 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalìs »
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9037 on: October 30, 2016, 09:59:56 pm »

The supposed autism-causing mercury-containing preservative has been largely phased out. Unless the concept of "give weakened/dead germs to people, let their immune systems get prepared" itself causes autism, that theory been thoroughly disproven.

SCIENCE. It works, bitches.

... and what do you want to bet that now the anti-Vaxxers will say "yeah but it was never the mercury it was <this other thing>". Which is one of the clearest signs of dealing with a pseudoscience.

Of course, if a weakened measles vaccine causes autism, then how much autism must be caused by actual measles? I mean, since we're dealing with identical molecular structures in either a vaccine or a virus, then the existence of just one virus which causes autism would be a good basis for further study. But the fact is, the epidemiology of autism doesn't suggest it's caused by contagious agents.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 10:02:07 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9038 on: October 30, 2016, 10:00:15 pm »

The supposed autism-causing mercury-containing preservative has been largely phased out. Unless the concept of "give weakened/dead germs to people, let their immune systems get prepared" itself causes autism, that theory been thoroughly disproven.

SCIENCE. It works, bitches.

The mercury stuff should have been removed anyway, because mercury.

It's not an individual risk. It's a collective one. Why should a person's parents be allowed to decide not only if they will be at put at risk of illness, permanent damage, and death, but also everybody who is unable to receive vaccines?

The reverse of this is true as well, though. To use the example in the documentary I linked, why should I put my child at the risk of developing a debilitating incurable disorder merely to ensure the safety of other people who are vanishingly unlikely to be affected by my decision?

Everyone has a different opinion on where the line is between personal responsibility and the social contract, I'm sure. For me, I don't believe the state has a right to force vaccines upon members of the population if they're unwilling (excluding a Typhoid Mary type situation, I suppose).

The only ones at risk in the case of narcolepsy are those with the genetic predisposition for it. The same is probably true for autism, but it has a wide spectrum and you can't narrow down the genetic cause to one specific spot, theres many factors.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 10:02:53 pm by smjjames »
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9039 on: October 30, 2016, 10:03:18 pm »

Unfortunately they weren't aware of the issue and didn't test people for a genetic predisposition for narcolepsy before handing out the vaccine, so the point stands.
So they can improve the procedure now.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9040 on: October 30, 2016, 10:04:42 pm »

The only ones at risk in the case of narcolepsy are those with the genetic predisposition for it.

Pfft, almost all people suffer a narcolepsy attack once per day.

TheBiggerFish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9041 on: October 30, 2016, 10:05:52 pm »

The only ones at risk in the case of narcolepsy are those with the genetic predisposition for it.

Pfft, almost all people suffer a narcolepsy attack once per day.
Ayy.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9042 on: October 30, 2016, 10:06:17 pm »

The problem is, how do you ethically test whether vaccines are causing <pick your disease of choice>? Because, as I said earlier, you can't ethically not vaccinate a control group.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9043 on: October 30, 2016, 10:06:42 pm »

Anti-vaxxers are stupid.  But they're also a predictable consequence of governments and corporations giving people valid reasons to be paranoid.  If powerful organizations can go a couple generations without getting caught all the goddamn time trying to cover up abusive behaviors, that kind of thing will eventually fade away.  Until then, conspiracy theories will continue to proliferate, and they will include things like distrust of modern medicine.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9044 on: October 30, 2016, 10:07:19 pm »

As I keep having to explain to people, there are different kinds of mercury. Methylmercury, which accumulates in the body, and ethylmercury, which does not. Vaccines contain the latter.

If any mercury was going to wreck you, you wouldn't be able to eat fish or have any involvement with it, as we see from the dramatic and deadly consequences of methylmercury exposure. But as long as your exposure is limited, ethylmercury is of no concern. A vaccine would have to be almost all mercury to do any harm with the size of the dose given. Yes, even to infants.

Of course, even in the pre-reduction days it was nowhere near this quantity. The reduction was done to appease public ignorance, not out of any medical concern.
The reverse of this is true as well, though. To use the example in the documentary I linked, why should I put my child at the risk of developing a debilitating incurable disorder merely to ensure the safety of other people who are vanishingly unlikely to be affected by my decision?
A. Your child is not at risk of disorder. Even if this narcolepsy thing is real, it's predetermined by genetics and is a poor substitute for the now debunked autism claims.

B. The reason why your child is not at risk of horrid disease is because the world is vaccinated. There's a reason why this shit only became widespread after mass disease suppression. There was once a time where getting smallpox and polio was just something people did, and was expected. More likely than not, even.If you sit there and tell me we should allow that world to return, we've got nothing to talk about. 50,000 Americans die of influenza every year, and that number would be damn near 0 if everybody got their fucking flu shots. Imagine what a pile of 50,000 corpses looks like, every year.

Even if vaccines caused autism to the degree of the worst claims of anti-vaxxers, I would still demand everybody be vaccinated. Not hypocrisy either, I've taken the needle and thus any risk that could result from it. Vaccines are the single greatest health benefit the human race has ever acquired, rivaled only by antibiotics and for similar reasons.

C. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm in full alignment with Max for once. If you don't vaccinate your children, please eject yourself from society. You do not have the individual liberty to cause a pandemic, nor to get your own and others' children killed.
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Everyone has a different opinion on where the line is between personal responsibility and the social contract, I'm sure. For me, I don't believe the state has a right to force vaccines upon members of the population if they're unwilling (excluding a Typhoid Mary type situation, I suppose).
The state has every right. The whole purpose of the state is to facilitate our collective organization. We pass diseases from one another without trying, so measures to inhibit disease are a power of the state.

I have no problem with oversight to prevent actual malfeasance, but that will never be the right to refuse vaccination. Even adults shouldn't have that right, much less children.

If you want to talk about the social contract; aiding and abetting the spread of disease puts you in violation in the exact same way killing people with negligence does. Doesn't matter if you meant to or not. The fact, and corpses, remain.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 10:12:34 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
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