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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1388451 times)

BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6630 on: October 11, 2016, 03:53:10 pm »

I'unno about official but it's definitely on fire to a fair extent. Possibly the most amazing thing to me is that these last few days may have been the most spineless I've ever seen the GOP -- trump's actually outright attacking them and they're rolling out lines claiming a great relationship. Individual republicans are telling trump to shove it but the party itself/its upper ranks appears to be just kinda' bending themselves over and parting cheeks.

This keeps up and they're going to have to change the party color to yellow >_>
I thought yellow was the liberal color, or is Wikipedia more conservative than I thought?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6631 on: October 11, 2016, 04:00:02 pm »

Yellow is liberalism in a lot of places, but not the US. It is the color of the Libertarian Party, for all that matters.
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nenjin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6632 on: October 11, 2016, 04:11:42 pm »

Trump's relation to the Tea Party is kind of weird, especially considering the one Cruz had. I think that Trump is the ultimate culmination of Tea Party interests, the visage of that famous protestor from back in 2010 or so who had a sign calling Obama a monkey. Cruz picked up on that and used it, but I think Trump just sort of is that.

Nate Silicone's analysis of the GOP put Trump outside of all the groups, and I think that's accurate. He's a true bohemian, and if anything is forming his own Trumpian bubble intersecting with the Tea Party and Religious Right. It's an organizational form of outrage and revanchism beyond what the Tea Party ever accomplished. America is being used by other countries. America is getting bad deals on the international market. America is being weakened from within by the established politicians. Islam is trying to destroy us, Europeans are trying to destroy us, Mexicans are trying to destroy us. I don't know if the Trumpian bubble will last. It's certainly got some proto-fascist tendencies to it which are always ready and waiting to be exploited, but in the all likelihood that Trump loses the election there's no telling.

If Trump disavows the results and claims the election was rigged I think it might well survive as the new far-right fringe while the last of the Religious Right calcifies into obscurity.

I dunno, I guess that comes down to what you believe the Tea Party really is behind closed doors. Prior to Trump, I would have said they're the defacto party of anti-establishment, religious, conservative Republicans, and that includes the "White is Right" people. Now....the Tea Party seems almost wholesome compared to what Trump is peddling. Or at least they do it with a veneer of polite society.

I guess the question is, does America have room for an EVEN MORE right-wing party? The kind of place David Duke would feel right at home? Cause the Tea Party, for all their anti-establishment rhetoric and folksy "I'm not a politician" attitude, still seemed to represent some of the average, honest if misguided White vote. The "I'm angry but I'm not going to march down the street shouting nigger" kind of voter.

Trump seems to represent people who, if they're still there, have given up on the idea of a political filter or the idea of polite discourse. I'm thinking that if Trump loses, those people will come back to reality, if only by inches, and blend back into the Tea Party as its most extreme elements. And that will bolster the Tea Party which, most likely, will go back to what it's been doing so far, and electing candidates who will only put up crack pot, far right bills and be legislatively obstructionist to both established parties. Doubly so if Hilary wins. If Trump wins, the Tea Party isn't bloody well going to align with the GOP to save it or stop Trump, and Trump will need a party to back him so.....the Tea Party will probably become the Trump party because it's the closest ideological fit. The Tea Party still has delusions of being a Constitutionalist party but I'm guessing a taste of real power in government and that pretext goes away. The Tea Party is what happens when "average folk" who don't believe in the fundamental role of government get elected office. And Trump is what happens when those same people no longer feel any shame or liability because of it.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 04:16:38 pm by nenjin »
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6633 on: October 11, 2016, 04:20:45 pm »

Elite Liberalism will always be green to me, thanks to Liberal Crime Squad (:
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RedKing

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6634 on: October 11, 2016, 04:30:33 pm »

If Trump disavows the results and claims the election was rigged I think it might well survive as the new far-right fringe while the last of the Religious Right calcifies into obscurity.
One fascinating by-effect of the Trump Tapes is that it may have split a wedge into the Religious Right. Certainly it's peeling the Mormons off at least. Pretty much the entire Utah Congressional delegation (ok, admittedly that's 3 people, plus their governor) were out front in denouncing Trump and rescinding their support. And it's not just because of the Romney-Trump thing.

Apparently, Mormons are seriously offended by Trump's behavior. After all, they have wives. And daughters. And more wives. And yet more wives.  :P

And for those who are truly religious and not just social conservatives hiding behind a Bible, a lot of them are struggling with this as well. And it's tarnishing those leaders among the Religious Right who are trying to be Trump apologists. (Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc)
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6635 on: October 11, 2016, 04:41:48 pm »

I dunno, I guess that comes down to what you believe the Tea Party really is behind closed doors. Prior to Trump, I would have said they're the defacto party of anti-establishment, religious, conservative Republicans, and that includes the "White is Right" people. Now....the Tea Party seems almost wholesome compared to what Trump is peddling. Or at least they do it with a veneer of polite society.

I think Trump is the same shit as the Tea Party just without a coat of paint.  The Tea Party has never been ideological it has been the same Trumpian message of saying other people dont deserve a seat at the table.  Liberals have been saying this for a long time but it's been dismissed as partisan.  But Trump shows us that the liberals have been right all along.  Conservatives care more about winning elections then what elections are supposed to accomplish.  Even now a disturbingly large number of them are standing behind Trump because they are afraid to offend his supporters in swing states.  If Trump isn't worse then losing an election then what the hell is worse then losing an election?

This shit isn't going to go away until conservatives stop demonizing their opponents while insisting that their side is never wrong.  And the forces in the middle need to stop enabling their denial by insisting both sides are to blame.  Conservatives nominated Trump not liberals.  Conservatives had as their runner up a man who made a career of sabotaging the government for personal fame.  Hell even Marco Rubio, the supposedly mainstream candidate, regularly attacks president Obama as being unamerican.  Marco Rubio's behavior is unbefitting a democracy let alone Cruz or Trump.

There is no good path out of here for republicans.  They need to amputate the cancer and it's going to hurt.  They should have done it years ago but they were too busy insisting that it was really liberals who were extremist nutjobs.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6636 on: October 11, 2016, 04:56:26 pm »

Their insistence is that they can completely contain Trump and push ahead with their legislation.

Which kind of begs the question: What is the worst that Trump can realistically do? (outside declaring war)
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6637 on: October 11, 2016, 05:03:24 pm »

Their insistence is that they can completely contain Trump and push ahead with their legislation.

Which kind of begs the question: What is the worst that Trump can realistically do? (outside declaring war)

Shut down federal agencies, ally with tea party conservatives to start vetoing all budgets, turn our treaties into dead documents by announcing he has no intention to honor our security and trade guarantees, start trade wars with frivolous lawsuits in international trade arbitration bodies.  I mean that's just off the top of my head though.  I'm sure that with a few years to think about how to fuck things up you can come up with something worse.

Depending on who ends up as treasury secretary he could stop payments to US bond holders and create a global banking crisis but that's more of a conditional thing.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6638 on: October 11, 2016, 05:04:09 pm »

If you don't include congress giving him a free pass, most of it would involve deep sixing regulation, so far as I'm aware. Basically doing what obama's been doing, in reverse. Getting a complete lunatic fringe SCOTUS member would be pretty high up there, too.

And note he's promised to straight up get rid of things like the EPA. Unless that was a lie, too (which is a caveat for everything the weasely shit says), he'd be in a position to more or less do just that.

And all m said, heh.
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6639 on: October 11, 2016, 05:19:28 pm »

At the age of 164, the Republican party died today after long illness. It is survived by its heir, the Libertarian Party, and its illegitimate child, the Tea Party.
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Those attacks, leveled on Twitter, followed Ryan’s decision a day earlier to abandon Trump, telling GOP lawmakers during a conference call that he will not campaign with the Republican nominee, nor will he defend the bombastic and often controversial candidate. POLITICO reported on Tuesday morning that it’s still possible Ryan will entirely yank his endorsement.
This is beautiful in so many messed-up ways. Ryan declares that Trump is irredeemable scum, Trump announces war on the GOP establishment, and yet Ryan still hasn't pulled his endorsement.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6640 on: October 11, 2016, 05:29:09 pm »

My guess is that he pulls a Farage and goes through with approximately 4% of his stated policy changes in terms of government overhaul.

I'm guessing that if he miraculously manages to win, he'll privately flounder for a bit before affirming to himself (and everyone else in the next press conference) that this was obvious, it's just good to know that democracy does in fact work even when gov't tries to rig everything against him, and that his fantastic temperament is going to guide him during his time in the white house, his fantastic temperament and the people of the United States...

And then he's going to go into businessman mode, because that's what he's done his whole life. He's going to act almost exactly the way he does when he's in charge of a company except with even more showmanship and probably more ego, which means he'll only go through with the stupider shit if people call him on it. If no one says 'Hah! You said you would do this and now you aren't! More reasons for me to hate you!" then he'll just not get around to it. I can see him doing a better job than we'd like to admit with foreign policy (not a great one, mind, just better than we had any expectations for), and pushing through the same sort of stuff we'd expect from a typical Republican president (since Congress would allow about that much, I figure), plus some antics and shenanigans, particularly with quite possibly a Libertarian or corporate defense lawyer Court Justice or both, probably cause quite a bit of tension, some riots and shit due to discontent at fucking Trump being president and people absolutely flipping their shit, a prolonged legal attack on Obama and Clinton because from what I know and have heard this whole thing is quite possibly originally out of spite/anger at Obama making fun of Trump to his face at a convention where he could do nothing about it, in front of a lot of people (weird how insulting people you don't like comes around to bite you in the ass it's almost like what the people saying 'you're right but don't be a cock about it' were saying all along how very odd and unexpected), and so forth. He won't try to roll back gay marriage, or pull shit along those lines unless he feels like he needs to make a point. He's going to be very easy to manipulate accidentally, essentially. He's also pretty good at controlling image, from what I know. And you might say that's bullshit look at all the things wrong with his image but look at the fact that in this scenario he's won anyway.

Plus, once midterms hit Congress is gonna be shutting him the fuck down.


This shit isn't going to go away until conservatives stop demonizing their opponents while insisting that their side is never wrong.  And the forces in the middle need to stop enabling their denial by insisting both sides are to blame.  Conservatives nominated Trump not liberals.  Conservatives had as their runner up a man who made a career of sabotaging the government for personal fame.  Hell even Marco Rubio, the supposedly mainstream candidate, regularly attacks president Obama as being unamerican.
So, the people on the right are at fault (and always wrong), and the people in the middle are at fault, but not the people on the left (who are always innocent and correct)? (also, saying your opponent is unamerican is par for the course, I'm pretty sure Clinton's done the same thing multiple times in this cycle) Does this extend to the voters as well?

I honestly can't tell if you're doing a parody of partisan bias right now.

Sidenote: Market democracy: if you're not optimizing for winning elections then you aren't gonna be doin' shit anyway (plus they wouldn't be replaced by a fuckin' Democrat they'd be replaced by a Trump-style republican in a primary challenge)
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6641 on: October 11, 2016, 05:41:57 pm »

... you might actually try reading what m wrote, rp.
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6642 on: October 11, 2016, 05:56:56 pm »

My guess is that he pulls a Farage and goes through with approximately 4% of his stated policy changes in terms of government overhaul.
Farage has not spent a single day in British government his whole life fam
Don't know why you trying to slate him for policy shit when you talking shit

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Their insistence is that they can completely contain Trump and push ahead with their legislation.

Which kind of begs the question: What is the worst that Trump can realistically do? (outside declaring war)
Cause civil fractures in society between political parties and internal factions that lasts for generations and generations, paralyzing US politics for the forseeable future and defining the American civilization by dysfunction

mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6643 on: October 11, 2016, 06:03:37 pm »

I honestly can't tell if you're doing a parody of partisan bias right now.

Yes god forbid I state that the authoritarian madman with no respect for his fellow humans actually signifies anything.  No we all need to go through a kubuki theater of saying "why I have no clue how this happened!  It's just a glitch that republicans keep having this happen to them through absolutely no fault of their own."

Because saying anything else would be partisan.  ::)

If this election was happening in Russia then anyone who didn't agree with what I'm saying would be called a shameless apologist for an autocrat.  But in America we have created this bizarre set of rules whereby the truth is a partisan proposition.  That is the problem.  That is why our system can't fix Trump.  Yeah he is going to lose but he is only going to lose by a bit more then a normal amount.  By all rights he should be losing by more then 20 points.  And he wont because our whole damn political system has "that's partisan!" to the brain.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6644 on: October 11, 2016, 06:26:28 pm »

The truth has a liberal bias. Just look at global warming.
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