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[RedKing]

Not incongruent.

The anti-globalist left typically talks about how it exploits people in developing countries.
The anti-globalist right typically talks about how it "steals" jobs from developed economies.

They both have valid points, although the reality is a lot more complicated.

[Helgoland]

I feel like Bernie's trade protectionism came out of a different source though -- anticorporatism as opposed to nationalist sentiment.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that

Seriously though, simply not giving a shit about or maybe not even remembering the existence of the millions of Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, etc etc workers you're fucking over in the process of protecting or re-enlarging your piece of the cake - and let's face it, that's what young folks are doing these days - is a form of nationalism as well. Less malicious and more unthinking, but still nationalism. I'd wager a fair sum that anti-corporatism would take entirely different forms if it weren't for this very real economic incentive for anti-corporate agitation.

[RedKing]

I feel like Bernie's trade protectionism came out of a different source though -- anticorporatism as opposed to nationalist sentiment.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that

Seriously though, simply not giving a shit about or maybe not even remembering the existence of the millions of Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, etc etc workers you're fucking over in the process of protecting or re-enlarging your piece of the cake - and let's face it, that's what young folks are doing these days - is a form of nationalism as well. Less malicious and more unthinking, but still nationalism. I'd wager a fair sum that anti-corporatism would take entirely different forms if it weren't for this very real economic incentive for anti-corporate agitation.

Not really the thread for this, but there's a whole huge argument to be had over that. Why is it the responsibility of the developed world to subsidize the Third World into prosperity at the cost of their own citizenry? If we had somehow evolved into a post-capitalist society where we didn't have to have jobs ourselves, I'd be much more onboard with letting the Third World do the heavy lifting (although that itself is problematic and seems even more imperialist to me). But until then, we have a serious problem. Not everyone in the US and Western Europe can be an inventor or creative genius or other "idea jobs". Not even most.

[Helgoland]

Wanna make a thread? Sounds like a fruitful field of discussion, if we can restrain ourselves from just yelling at each other

[Frumple]

... didn't that quoted bit, like. Answer the question posed in response to it?

E: Actually, now it feels like that was an amazing example of exactly what the quoted bit said. If that was intentional, bravo.

[Rolepgeek]

Also, MNCs will only operate where the labor is ch eapest; once labor costs rise enough, they'll leave, and they have no incentive to leave the QoL infrastructure intact.

[Folly]

Trump giving a speech right now, promising to repeal the Johnson Amendment because the Christian God should be leading our government and Christians are the most decent and selfless people in the world.

I'm guessing he's never heard of the Taiping Civil War.

[mainiac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDrfE9I8_hs

[Baffler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDrfE9I8_hs

What is this meme? Trade is a major part of his platform. Are people surprised, or trying to imply implications, because he's mentioned our biggest trading partner a lot over the many months he's been campaigning?

[RedKing]

... didn't that quoted bit, like. Answer the question posed in response to it?

E: Actually, now it feels like that was an amazing example of exactly what the quoted bit said. If that was intentional, bravo.

It's kinda difficult to articulate an anti-globalist POV without coming off at least partially nationalist (unless you delve into pure Marxist critiques of "exploitation of the global worker class by the wealthy"). Wasn't meant to be nationalist so much as pragmatist.

I mean, seriously...what is a country supposed to do if a quarter of their citizens are unemployed because the jobs that that quarter would normally fill have been offshored? And the loss of income tax revenues makes it doubly harder to support a social welfare system to keep those unemployed in a decent standard of living? It's unsustainable without some new sector of the economy arising (the way that the boom of IT and biotech helped soften the blow of losing basic manufacturing for the US). If somebody invents cheap energy and viable space travel, then hey sure...the rest of the world can build stuff and keep it running, and we'll all go colonize space. But until then, we have a problem.

In my mind, "nationalist" critiques of globalism seek to assign blame to the workers. Rhetoric about stolen jobs, "unfair" competition, etc. I have no problem with the guys in Chennai or Bangalore who are filling the IT jobs that used to be here. It's not their fault. They're good people who just want a good standard of living for themselves and their families, and they're typically hard workers. But their ability to work for $6/hr is directly harming my ability to make a decent salary. Or even keep my job. I don't see rational self-concern in this instance as selfish, racist or nationalist.

Rightist rhetoric on this pits workers against workers (and sometimes governments), while leftist rhetoric pits workers against employers (and sometimes governments). It's that "sometimes governments" where you see the weird marriage of the two, as in opposing free trade deals or regulatory things like opposing H1B visas.

[PTTG??]

See, what we need to do is fix globalism by forcing all nations to provide a decent standard of living and a planetary minimum wage. The best part is that Europe and the USA are still hegemonic enough to possibly force that through, and both would benefit. As a side effect, we'd help the entire planet thrive.

At least until the next-wave automation hits the markets and puts 60% of the planet out of a job.

[Guardian G.I.]

See, what we need to do is fix globalism by forcing all nations to provide a decent standard of living and a planetary minimum wage.

And how should they force everyone to do it? Militarily?

"Enact minimum wage, or die!"

[Strife26]

See, what we need to do is fix globalism by forcing all nations to provide a decent standard of living and a planetary minimum wage.

And how should they force everyone to do it? Militarily?

"Enact minimum wage, or die!"

Once we're all trying to work in the ashes and rubble of the world, it's pretty easy to get great strides in the standard of living. We just need to tank the standard and population levels first.

[saigo]

And how should they force everyone to do it? Militarily?

"Enact minimum wage, or die!"

We could turn the UN into a federation of some sort. Make countries into provinces.

[Rolan7]

See, what we need to do is fix globalism by forcing all nations to provide a decent standard of living and a planetary minimum wage. The best part is that Europe and the USA are still hegemonic enough to possibly force that through, and both would benefit. As a side effect, we'd help the entire planet thrive.

At least until the next-wave automation hits the markets and puts 60% of the planet out of a job.

Nah see, then we're "oppressing their beautiful unique cultures."
Or more fairly, "Interfering with other countries is bad!".  Maybe even followed by "Well, uh, I guess we shouldn't let companies do that" while continuing to buy the products which undermine our morality and our workforce.