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[mainiac]

... beyond that, cost of living issues and the changes regarding blue collar work over the last while is... a lot more complicated than just income stagnation. Standard of living is pretty notable, too -- you can definitely keep a family going on a single blue collar income in many places in the states (I personally live in one where it's fairly viable below the bloody poverty line, it's just damn sure uncomfortable), it's just you wouldn't exactly be living in the best of conditions. Mind, you wouldn't exactly have been living in the best of conditions a while back, either. People seem to like to forget what things were like a few decades ago for folks in that situation...

And I'll add, if it's really the cost of housing that is the end of the world... just move outside the cities.  You can get a home that is great by 1980s standards and afford it on a shitty job.  I have done it, personally.

The gist of it was that capitalism is working out just fine for everyone, and I'm saying that the working class is getting fucked over because increase in their productivity hasn't been reflected by an increase in their wealth, which means they're getting an ever smaller slice of the sweat of their brow. So I'd say Marx isn't as out of date as people claim.

It's reasonable to say that income inequality is growing and that there is a serious bargaining power issue.  I would agree with that.

It's not reasonable to construe my views as "capitalism is working out just fine for everyone".

[birdy51]

-snip-

If it's any consolation...

I'm not trying to be the voice of ignorance here, but I am trying to explain how others see the big picture through their eyes. As much as I don't like it, I can't tune out some of the bullshit Trump spills because otherwise, I'll never get around to understanding him and his point of view. If I can't understand that, I can't see why people support him. If I can't see why people support him, I can't possibly explain why it's not a good idea to support him.

And truthfully, I don't really understand Hillary yet. Which is why your own input is important.

My ultimate goal is to actually understand how each candidate ticks. With Trump, it's finally become easy. He'll support you only if hold value to him. But truth be told, I don't really understand Hillary in all of this. Her motivations are still a mystery to me.

That said, the DNC is coming next week, so if I'm going to find out, it'll likely be then. I'll reserve any final judgement for when I've heard her speak.

[mainiac]

That said, the DNC is coming next week, so if I'm going to find out, it'll likely be then. I'll reserve any final judgement for when I've heard her speak.

That should probably work.  I expect it will be a very conventional convention so it's sorta designed for that.

Sorry I rushed to judgement on you.

[Max™]

Will it be a conventional convention to help the Town City City Council Council Meeting Meetings determine when to convene?

[Loud Whispers]

The Onion's take on the RNC is pretty accurate

[birdy51]

That said, the DNC is coming next week, so if I'm going to find out, it'll likely be then. I'll reserve any final judgement for when I've heard her speak.

That should probably work.  I expect it will be a very conventional convention so it's sorta designed for that.

Sorry I rushed to judgement on you.

Tis ok. It happens to all of us. Hopefully the Democrats can avoid the pitfalls that the Republican party has fallen into with all of the blood and iron levels of negativity.

[Lord Shonus]

Not politics, strictly speaking, but there's been something of a coup over at Fox News. Chairman Roger Ailes is resigning in the wake of a sexual harassment scandal, with Rupert Murdoch returning to head the company. This is a much more significant change than it might seem, because Ailles has been in a power struggle with Murdoch's sons for a long time now, and those sons want to completely restructure the network, greatly raising professionalism standards and stepping back from the increasing right-wing bias, which they view as bad for the network's long term health. More importantly, several of Fox's more colorful personalities have contracts nearing their end, and many others have clauses allowing them to terminate the contract without penalty if Ailes leaves.

If Fox takes a major leftward leap (which is far from unlikely, the younger Murdoch's reportedly tried to get Rupert to throw the network's weight behind Obama in '08), it is highly unlikely that any replacement on the far-right end of the spectrum will be nearly as effective. It probably won't happen this election, but the 2018 midterms and especially the 2020 presidential race could be a whole new ball game.

[Frumple]

Man, if that happened the sheer outpouring of salt from the more conservative portions of this country would be gorram amazing. Heads would explode, hopefully not literally.

[martinuzz]

But but.. Capitalism IS working just fine. The rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, all how it's supposed to work out. That's like, the whole idea of capitalism.

[birdy51]

Arguably Capitalism would work assuming the rich actually spend the money they've been earning. I don't mind people being rich, but I do mind the idea of that cash being arbitrarily locked up in reserve.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

What if property rights expired with the property owner (except in cases of murder)?

[Lord Shonus]

But but.. Capitalism IS working just fine. The rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, all how it's supposed to work out. That's like, the whole idea of capitalism.

Not in the least. The idea of capitalism is that you go out and work for a living, and through hard work you move up the ladder until you become rich. If you don't like your job, buckle down with studying and training to get a better job. If you think your boss has his head up his ass and you could run the same business better? Go to the bank, get a loan, and prove it. Hire people to work for you. You have an employee that stands out head and shoulders above the rest? Promote her. Employees that barely do their job? Fire them.

It is supposed to be an endless upward cycle that sweeps everybody up with it, as long as they're willing to work and leaving behind nobody but the lazy. The problem is that it doesn't work in practice - all too often we assume that somebody with money earned it instead of just wisely deciding to be born into money, and those with money are more likely to greet someone climbing the ladder of success with a boot in the face instead of a hand up. Making matters still worse is that more and more people with money are more interested in the fast buck than in steady profit.

It is, in essence, the exact mirror of Communism, where "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs" becomes "the leaders of the Party need so much more if they are to lead the workers and peasants into the glorious classless future".

More succinctly, Capitialism is all about trying to enforce equality of opportunity (anyone can get rich just by working hard and looking out for the main chance), while Communism is about trying to enforce equality of result (everybody gets what they need, and nobody should be able to deprive somebody else by trying to get more than they need). Neither works in practice, which is why the last eighty years or so has been largely about trying to find a balanced hybrid system.

[Loud Whispers]

But but.. Capitalism IS working just fine. The rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, all how it's supposed to work out. That's like, the whole idea of capitalism.

omg like +1
2deep4me

[birdy51]

What if property rights expired with the property owner (except in cases of murder)?

Strikes me as a bit dangerous for U.S.A. Hardcore Merricans would drop dead before they give up their land and property to gubberment forces.

Granted, I too would drop dead before then assuming I have property and someone who I would like to see inherit it, so there you go.

[mainiac]

Arguably Capitalism would work assuming the rich actually spend the money they've been earning. I don't mind people being rich, but I do mind the idea of that cash being arbitrarily locked up in reserve.

That would actually be awesome if it happened.  If we knew for sure that was happening then the Federal Reserve would start doing "helicopter drops" where they would start giving money to poor people to buy things.  I suppose you could say that the money would eventually "trickle up" and end up getting locked away by the rich again so it would be the same as if we taxed the rich and spent it on the poor.  But the awesome part is that you could do helicopter drops with a literal helicopter.

Not in the least. The idea of capitalism is that you go out and work for a living, and through hard work you move up the ladder until you become rich.

I think the idea of capitalism is allowing people to amass capital.  That's why it's called "capital"-ism.