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[RedKing]

Also, on Powell, I don't remember the UN powerpoint thing (or maybe I simply didn't see it), but I do remember all the accusations of Saddam having 'WMDs' and using that as a flimsy escuse to go to war. Though I learned more of that later, I was still somewhat politically naive during the first part of Bush 43's adminstration. Additionally, I voted bush in 2004 because I thought that since we were at war, it would be best to keep the same president.

Here ya go. Warning: It's like an hour long and then some.

The core of it was:
*We have a recording of a couple of guys who we're telling you are Iraqi military officials, talking about something vaguely incriminating.
* ALUMINUM TUBES ARE TOOLS OF THE DEVIL
*We think they may have a few chemical rounds left in their arsenal, which is obviously justification for a full-scale invasion and regime change.


Even Powell himself has called his presentation an epic intelligence failure and a "blot on his record".
I remember watching it live and thinking "Seriously? This is their 'slam dunk'?"

I thought the justification was that they somehow thought Saddam had made and stashed nukes somewhere, which we never found actual evidence of. Nevermind the fact that their 'source' is one who was already known to be unreliable and the information had come from torture, like, actual 'mutilate until you give the answer I want' torture.

That was their narrative, but there was never enough evidence to push it hard. You had some smoke (and mirrors) from Ahmed Chalabi and his ilk, but ultimately it became "We have somewhat strong evidence that he has a few chemical munitions, which is a violation of UN Security Council Resolutions. And if he's lying to us about that, what else might he be lying about?? He got a bunch of aluminum tubes, which could be used to build an enrichment facility (or used for a dozen other precision manufacturing processes)."

Which led to the whole "We can't wait for the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud" spiel. And when that didn't succeed internationally, they tacked on the "He violated a UN Security Resolution, so we HAVE to enforce it or else the UN is meaningless."

Honestly, it's not all that different from the mindset when a cop shoots a black guy, to go and find some criminal record on the guy so that you can say "Well, he had priors, so who knows what he had planned?! He probably had a gun and was probably up to no good, so it's totally legit."

But anyways, this is becoming something of a derail. Watch the video sometime and laugh at how weak it is, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

[Frumple]

Sanders... I really liked Sanders. I'd say I still do. I think the primary process was utterly stolen from him through fraudulent or ridiculously dirty tactics (at minimum), which is a large part of why I despise Clinton so much (which the Republicans among you may not understand.)

In the end, he went to Clinton's side, however, and that I cannot really forgive him for. Not yet. Given my judgment of Clinton's character I would not be surprised in the slightest if she was threatening his family or some other such thing, but that is obviously "unsupported."

No, the primary process was not stolen from him, as has been clarified repeatedly in this very thread. No, sanders for once in this election cycle not shooting his movement in the foot isn't some kind of betrayal. I actually voted for the jackass in the primary, and he wasn't mistreated by the party by any means, doubly so in the face of his history and actions during the primary. Bernie got better and more even handed treatment than he probably deserved, tbh.

And that last bit... good gods. No, it's not unsupported, it's insane. If that what your character judgement is spitting out, you need to take it in to the shop and get it fixed.

[Starver]

Might have been referring to her warhawkness, which, while better than Obamas weaksauce 'multiple red line that are okay to cross' foriegn policy, is a bit of a concern.

Actually what I assumed, but apparently War With Russia didn't flip his/her switch.

As to:

You mention qualifications, but where has Hillary been successful? Libya?

I'm not sure TBH, it's been mostly hobbled by the fact that Obama is really weak with foriegn stuff. If the person at the top is weak, there is only so much that the secertary of state can do, right? Plus there may not have been enough time for her real successes to become analyzed by historians.

Depending on who you ask, there's Iran. Only time will tell if her opponents are right in suggesting that she caved in and "handed Iran nukes", but I currently think that is actually going in the direction of hyperbolic fantasy rhetoric and that she's managed to prevent Iran going in a semi-Best Korea direction, and thus bring them back in out of the cold...

But history (assuming there's a future) will be the best judge of that.

[RedKing]

Sanders... I really liked Sanders. I'd say I still do. I think the primary process was utterly stolen from him through fraudulent or ridiculously dirty tactics (at minimum), which is a large part of why I despise Clinton so much (which the Republicans among you may not understand.)

In the end, he went to Clinton's side, however, and that I cannot really forgive him for. Not yet. Given my judgment of Clinton's character I would not be surprised in the slightest if she was threatening his family or some other such thing, but that is obviously "unsupported."

I....no. Just no.

I was a Sanders supporter too. Still am. He struggled with structural unfairness in the way the primary system is run, but it wasn't "stolen" from him. And his endorsement of Clinton doesn't make him a Quisling (go look it up). Clinton doesn't have squads of Men in Black running around the country threatening people into supporting her. That's not how the world works.

If the Republicans didn't want Hillary elected, they could have easily prevented this by picking almost ANYONE ELSE for their nominee.

[UXLZ]

My oh my, the condescension really comes quite naturally to some of you guys.

You must have reasons. I thought I'd help you with some vague ones if you hadn't. Inbetween that point in the thread and this all I've learnt is that you've swallowed Trump's bile (despite not liking him) and subscribed to (highly selective) tinpot tales told about the past rather than have any actual theories about what the future will be like.

I do have theories about what the future will be like, but I really didn't like the implications you were heaving and couldn't be bothered refuting them. If you must know what my "theory" is, then here it is. Clinton will lead to an ever-downward spiral of corruption and decay, eventually resulting in a civil war that severely weakens the US, potentially allowing Russia or China to take the dominant position in terms of influence on the world. Highly simplified.

No, the primary process was not stolen from him, as has been clarified repeatedly in this very thread. No, sanders for once in this election cycle not shooting his movement in the foot isn't some kind of betrayal. I actually voted for the jackass in the primary, and he wasn't mistreated by the party by any means, doubly so in the face of his history and actions during the primary. Bernie got better and more even handed treatment than he probably deserved, tbh.

And that last bit... good gods. No, it's not unsupported, it's insane. If that what your character judgement is spitting out, you need to take it in to the shop and get it fixed.

You must have been paying attention to a verrrrry different primary process than I was, but oh well. It's not like the chairman of the Democratic party thing ended up being forced to resign or anyth... Oh.

"I disagree with your subjective judgment, therefore you are insane and wrong."
Right.
Good to know.

Anyway, I need to sleep. Goodnight.

[smjjames]

If the Republicans didn't want Hillary elected, they could have easily prevented this by picking almost ANYONE ELSE for their nominee.

Didn't help that they sabotaged themselves along the way via a thousand cuts. Not going to list everything gone wrong as we know all of them.

[RedKing]

Are you even American? 

This all starts to make a bit more sense if you're some guy half a world away just getting your news from god-knows-what media outlet.

[smjjames]

Are you even American? 

This all starts to make a bit more sense if you're some guy half a world away just getting your news from god-knows-what media outlet.

Looking at his timezone, it would appear that he is in Australia. Which would make sense how he has no clue who Colin Powell is.

Considering that he just said he needs to sleep, followed by "goodnight", at what is about 10 AM CST, he's in the East Asia or West Pacific region. So, no.

His timezone corresponds to east coast Australia.

Wait, did he even say 'vote for hillary or trump' once? It's possible that he is American, just lives in Australia.

[Criptfeind]

"I disagree with your subjective judgment, therefore you are insane and wrong."

Your subjective judgement is that there's a massive criminal conspiracy controlling America politics directly. Since that'd be the requirement for what you believe to be true. Insane might be a harsh way to put it, but without some rather extraordinary evidence, such a reaction to your judgement isn't outside the realm of expected.

[smjjames]

Your choice is being shot in the head or being shot in the stomach, America. Either way you're screwed, and either way you're dragging the whooole world down with you.

^This shoulda clued us in that he wasn't American I guess.

Anyways, makes sense now......

[Starver]

My oh my, the condescension really comes quite naturally to some of you guys.

You must have reasons. I thought I'd help you with some vague ones if you hadn't. Inbetween that point in the thread and this all I've learnt is that you've swallowed Trump's bile (despite not liking him) and subscribed to (highly selective) tinpot tales told about the past rather than have any actual theories about what the future will be like.

I do have theories about what the future will be like, but I really didn't like the implications you were heaving and couldn't be bothered refuting them. If you must know what my "theory" is, then here it is. Clinton will lead to an ever-downward spiral of corruption and decay, eventually resulting in a civil war that severely weakens the US, potentially allowing Russia or China to take the dominant position in terms of influence on the world. Highly simplified.

That's at least an explanation, though when you stack it up against the business temperament of her opposition, I say it's misguided.  "Implications" are in your mind, I just plucked two entirely different scenarios out as an example to prompt you to tell us your scenario, and you didn't get the hint until now. Sorry. I'll be clearer next time.

Anyway, I need to sleep. Goodnight.

West Coast US is 8am, by my reckoning, 11am on the East. 5am in Hawaii. Yeah, I've done my fair share of that. Doesn't always help the thinking process. Re-read this all 'tomorrow', when you awake, is my advice.

(ETA: Yes, I didn't want to 'implicate' anything, but I was actually guessing Western Pacific. Japan's just passed midnight. Didn't bother to check the profile, just thought that if I gave a plausible out and left it at that it might resolve itself without any undue embarassment, but now it's in the open...)

(ETA2: and when you get to the reply about the above (you'll know it when you see it) you should know that I'm also in the (dis)UK contingent.)

[Frumple]

"I disagree with your subjective judgment, therefore you are insane and wrong."
Right.
Good to know.

... mate, it's not just subjective judgment when you're inventing scenarios from thin air where a public figure is threatening another's family for political gain, when there's a thousand and one more reasonable explanations for what happened. As someone that's been living with mild paranoia (and has family where it's more than mild) for a long damn time, I can safely tell you that's gone beyond reasonable suspicion and into, "Yeah, I might need to be talking to a shrink" territory. And ninja'd, but yes. I call it insane because I've seen similar thought processes in my own life, and they were not what you'd call the product of a stable cognition.

And you might want to look at that primary process again. Actually look, this time. Much of the shit surrounding the DNC chair was pretty literally just because sanders was being an ass. Pretty much every point of the primary the DNC was as even handed as you could expect them to be (which was very, and, for all the screeching of some of the sanders supporters, not inappropriate) given who was running. Again, you can trawl back through the thread if you don't feel like poking news for something that's closer to thorough than... whatever you've been seeing. It's come up more than once.

[smjjames]

Anyway, I need to sleep. Goodnight.

West Coast US is 8am, by my reckoning, 11am on the East. 5am in Hawaii. Yeah, I've done my fair share of that. Doesn't always help the thinking process. Re-read this all 'tomorrow', when you awake, is my advice.

Before we somehow scare him off, I just want to say to UXLZ that there's nothing wrong with people from other countries talking in the American Politics thread, your input is totally welcome. There's plenty of other people from other countries who talk in here from time to time, Reelya is from Australia too, Martinuzz is Dutch, Loud Whispers is from Britain, Sheb (in the post below) is from Belgium.

[Sheb]

Your choice is being shot in the head or being shot in the stomach, America. Either way you're screwed, and either way you're dragging the whooole world down with you.

^This shoulda clued us in that he wasn't American I guess.

Anyways, makes sense now......

No real american would give a fuck about the rest of the world. :p

[RedKing]

Anyway, I need to sleep. Goodnight.

West Coast US is 8am, by my reckoning, 11am on the East. 5am in Hawaii. Yeah, I've done my fair share of that. Doesn't always help the thinking process. Re-read this all 'tomorrow', when you awake, is my advice.

Before we somehow scare him off, I just want to say to UXLZ that there's nothing wrong with people from other countries talking in the American Politics thread, your input is totally welcome. There's plenty of other people from other countries who talk in here from time to time, Reelya is from Australia too, Martinuzz is Dutch, Loud Whispers is from Britain, Sheb (in the post below) is from Belgium.

And I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave. Wasn't trying to dismiss participation from our non-Murrican brethren, just that a....caricatured understanding of American politics is more forgiveable when you're an outsider looking in. Same way that I talk shit in the Brexit thread but it should be taken with a heavy dose of salt (which is just how I serve it) because I only have a middling understanding of the complexities involved.