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[wierd]

Likely, the game does not check the flag before setting it on a terminated unit. Why would it?

[Max™]

I didn't say it was superfluous, just that the corpse item having the dead_dwarf flag set was the main block preventing ethics-allowed cannibalism, and the most likely cause of the old "adventurers can just straight up eat friends and family" behavior, but I don't have an old version to test if it was always set or not, though I don't recall it being active until recently.

[FantasticDorf]

I didn't say it was superfluous, just that the corpse item having the dead_dwarf flag set was the main block preventing ethics-allowed cannibalism, and the most likely cause of the old "adventurers can just straight up eat friends and family" behavior, but I don't have an old version to test if it was always set or not, though I don't recall it being active until recently.

I hate to point it out, but it has nothing to do with ethics, since with modified raws you can still use, wear and eat ethically appropriate abnormal material (sentient meat/objects/earrings made of elf nail etc) and there isn't one rule for your fortress and another rule for worldgen because surely your new citizens would refuse to use those imported items on site. The relation is the terminated unit being required for the materials and rendering them void.

For all function besides being a little funky with behaviour overlaps, the ethical system is actually working. If it was really a forcefully butchered forbidden object it would be {forbidden} as nishes story details but as you can totally evidence by modding your raw folder to [ETHIC EAT SENTIENT OTHER:ACCEPTABLE] DFhack unit spawning in a troll pet factional member and slaughtering it from the (V) < (P) screen, the meat is just posessed by the terminated unit and subject to different rules, its not forbidden, just unusuable as everything rejects using it and moves it to refuse perfectly fresh

Spoiler:  evidenced using relevant modded raws (click to show/hide)

Above is a fresh embark with 1 adult troll and 1 child troll, the rest of the citizens are from goblins and the trolls are domestic tame pets (as defined in the base raws anyway), i am moving the troll 'citizens to the burrow to keep them there and also show you that they are valid to move. It is a EVIL entity embarkation of "The Perfect Vice".

I am going to build a butchery workshop and slaughter the adult troll, in the meantime look at the goods that the goblins are wearing, though my goblins unlike immigrants dont have any particular additional pieces to own or wear, they do wear BP [ANIMAL_PRODUCTS] ethically defined leather products which require animal & sentient ethics to enable. Image is below, and the goblin is unphased wearing that unethical product

> The trolls themselves I have embarked with are wearing clothes and will pick up new garments to wear in their size (polar bear man sized roughly, all troll clothes are labelled 'Large'), when they are slaughtered (which is executed by a phantom UI command of (S)laughter though its not a option because it'll bring you up to the sentient labour (redundant because they can only haul) work animal and occupation screen)) the clothes will be destroyed too because its a complete destruction of the unit.



My trolls are starting to dehydrate, my new plan is to butcher the adult and then show you the produce which is non {Forbidden} by ethics then try to butcher the dying troll corpse (which with the terminated ID state wont go through even with positive ethics and the troll child should be unusable to even process when it dies)

Whilst its still alive, notice how the BP of the Ivory (along with all the associated meats with the muscles and limbs) is attached to the troll unit, with teeth being embedded and part of the mouth BP therefore not represented here.



Slaughter suceeded on the adult.



From the slaughtered troll, on the previous page are lots of meats (because trolls are very big, the skull is there along with the sweetbread etc) but the main point of interest are how all the posessed unit BP's (which is how if you read tissue material templates, convert into) are represented here.



Through new method testing i have corrected myself on facts since it's been a while since i tried all this method testing, (3-4 months when i was perfecting these raw modifications) but all of those workshops even when put in and out of of a burrow and forcibly linked refuse to acknowledge ANY of the materials off the troll. (The tanner straight up refuses to use the living BP of the troll skin, bonecrafts refuse ivory and bones, and even the farmer wont process the fur unless its sheared from the troll, [CORRECTION] the workers only move the refuse parts to the *corpses* pile, not the refuse pile.


While im waiting for the troll child to die naturally, enjoy it playing & scurrying around looking for vermin morsels to eat in a hurry (not even eating the bones from the now meatlessly rotted away bugged adult in the same burrow area's butchery workshop), using sentient behavior it shouldn't have access to.




Ok its dead after what felt like forever having it boxed in, and what's more its clothes popped off when it died, interestingly enough though i may have failed to spot it the first time, when all of the slaughtered troll's meat had rotted away, it had spawned its clothes pile outside the butchery though it certainly feels like when the second troll died those first set of clothes appeared. Strange.




And here is when directly prompted, a refusal to butcher the troll corpse within distance of a ethically right butcher ontop of errors in trying to craft the materials it gave.

I'm going to avoid replying to most of your reply to my reply to clear up one very important thing.

The ID creature is turned into a corpse before the ID is dispelled

Nothing is "turning into a corpse". A new corpse item is generated on the point where the unit died and the unit continues to exist. There is no transformation going on anywhere.

Negative, though you're using the right frame of mind as you've took up my definition of the problem i've been trying to get across, that corpse is still responsive to unorthadox method testing of its state (the relationship screen exploit), as to say either by the terminated unit ID still taking force as posession of its body, it will read out further BP developments that are taking place as it rots (which only really applies to the corpse state).

After a fresh corpse of lets say a drowning incident where the body is otherwise BP immaculate, death has symptoms, but specific rotting symptoms most notably the eyes causing them to "lose ability to see" is important. Ok maybe non literally it may or may not be the corpse but the two are definitely linked as it's status updates.

You two are arguing semantics over what toady calls " a soul".  The "soul data" is separate from the corpse item, which is why zombies work the way they do, and mummies work the way they do.  Mummification is more a transformation as far as I can tell, while zombies are entirely new units created from corpse items.

Regardless, please discontinue. Somebody being wrong on the internet is not the end of the world.

Very good point, there is no dishonor in being wrong.

Soul data is held by DF.unit which is very wrong right now as i've mentioned before evidenced by this bug report (10059) taking hold and messing up a lot of behaviour and functions. Because all 'animals' have a "soul" (so all units essentially since beside vermin which are separate class of animal, they are fed back into other systems like entity code through creature raw) typified in game terms with (V) functions and (Z) allowing them to intentionally have skills etc, which at base should only work to be basic but currently i believe gives all creatures the same UI (dwarf therapist has examples of reading non full sentient life to determine desires when the player can't interface) for the mind & health screen, as well as copying behaviors and stresses.

This gains a extra bit of credibility, when associated with stresses like loneliness, and wanting to talk to people which happen across entity sites everywhere, and if animals are counted (even wild) as entity members too they will be afflicted with the same thought outlet and values. A jump of logic but secretly sharing a system with dwarves because since early code, its been unconfigured to differentiate animals (the really old animals wear clothes bug) from sentient creatures may have caused more problems and wasted time than the bugfixes to amend.

Where these parallel lines cross are domestic pet creatures like trolls with active labours. Now i can vouch very heavily that trolls being modded in livestock are fiddly but workable creatures, but they are perfect case for what's going wrong in semi-sapients (animals intentionally with just intelligent protection and a ability to open doors is all they are, not literally intelligent) since trolls in play will act with simultaneous intelligent and non-intelligent desires rather than being a 'dumb animal' as their base coding suggests, claiming rooms to sleep in, drinking, singing (while mute) and socialising and it becomes a case of where does the line of what it can do and can't do really stop? The only way to pin trolls down are with burrows, and even so because none of them have names as animals this causes havoc with UI trying to differentiate them.

I mentioned this with all my troglodyte examples, especially in regards to off site population being affected by the global cavern features causing confrontations of rampaging named animals vs hunters to shape further interactions, giving them emotional states and reactions, that might be running through unseen UI but without definite testing all we can do is observe the advanced emotions they exhibit.

> A test you can do at home, on cavern layer 2 & 3, edit out the raws for all of the creatures with [LARGE_PREDATOR], if they are non-intelligent and everything as to say nothing will ever attack you down there passively without aggrovation by you first because they are not affected by historical unit intervention. (or a unseen dimension of conflict between animal populations in worldgen caused by adjacency)

Zombies as i've mentioned in my musing and observation before, return the class of creature into a un-intelligent huntable state (purging flags and keeping some) allowing butchering, but the terminated ID even so still holds power ('not- zombie #____ meat' but instead original class of creature '#_____ meat') over the original products so while its butcherable, its a pointless exercise to exploit the system if its not already a butcherable non intelligent 'huntable' class creature.

From the terminated ID, technically you can make a infinite source of zombies on evil embarks.

[Max™]

Having [CAN_LEARN] prevents any creature which should be able to eat sapients from doing so. A corpse which dies with [CAN_LEARN] has the item.flags1.dead_dwarf flag set. Removing one before, or one after death is sufficient to change this.

As an outsider goblin you can not butcher and eat a dwarf.

As a freaking giant lion with a name I took control of via dfhack I could not butcher and eat a dwarf without removing [CAN_LEARN] or untoggling dead_dwarf.

Trolls have [SLOW_LEARNER] which I think prevents the flag from being toggled on death, I haven't checked specifically.

It should be an issue of ethics instead of 'all adventurers can eat any creature, including their own friends and family' as it was or 'no adventurers can eat sapients, not even goblins or elves who defeat their foe and canonically should be able to do this, not even wild animals which have been taken control of and have no ethics' as it is.

[Untrustedlife]

deleted by me

[Random_Dragon]

None of this bickering provides anything in the way of conclusively, 100% demonstrating what bugs here are related.

[TheBiggerFish]

Toady have you ever read a Terry Pratchett novel such as any novel from the Discworld series? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld and if so will it influence how you go about myth generation for your worlds?

This question has been bugging me for awhile.

Yes, I think he's read Pyramids, or maybe Guards! Guards! IIRC the last time I asked.

[FantasticDorf]

Having [CAN_LEARN] prevents any creature which should be able to eat sapients from doing so. A corpse which dies with [CAN_LEARN] has the item.flags1.dead_dwarf flag set. Removing one before, or one after death is sufficient to change this.

As an outsider goblin you can not butcher and eat a dwarf. (Outsiders still adhere to dwarven ethic rules, you require REAL evil entity/alternative by modding as its dealt by a entity not creature basis)

As a freaking giant lion with a name I took control of via dfhack I could not butcher and eat a dwarf without removing [CAN_LEARN] or untoggling dead_dwarf.

Trolls have [SLOW_LEARNER] which I think prevents the flag from being toggled on death, I haven't checked specifically.

It should be an issue of ethics instead of 'all adventurers can eat any creature, including their own friends and family' as it was or 'no adventurers can eat sapients, not even goblins or elves who defeat their foe and canonically should be able to do this, not even wild animals which have been taken control of and have no ethics' as it is.

I can't discredit the role that dead_dwarf might be playing but i have already covered that transformatively turning a unit into a zombie purges the intelligence tags and allows it to be butchered. However because the BP is not converted to the new zombie class of creature, the old terminated unit ID is still in place and therefore its unusable and parts commited to the corpse pile (being the corpse of the unit BP's converted)

Your ethics arguement coincides that all the ethics is wrong and at fault, when in all actuality its just the corpse that is the largest problem and a failure to recognise the body of the terminated unit as egible to butcher because its still active. All the ethics revolve around huntable classes of creatures only corresponding to [KILL ANIMAL] and everything else handled by [EAT SENTIENT] and my logic explains in good detail how even as a giant lion cant do nothing, because the game wide system is broken nothing will happen. A lion is not part of a faction so ethics wouldn't be in force so why does a lion care about what it can and can't do? (strange example but that's the logic), elves have specific rules on combat and goblins can eat and butcher pretty much anything intentionally and would be better for trying with your dead_dwarf experiments.

My other bug reports also connects how wild animals are covert site units and follow all those ethics (brawling engagements etc), so that might be infringing on your giant lion examples credibility anyway if its a dwarven lion. I also highlighted in bold the fact that you were using dwarf raised goblin to try and execute ethics, which is a oversight.

> Recommendation - Set your entity folder like this to quickly access the goblin civ, then try your workaround if its the same in your super old version or apply the archaic terms. From the embark screen with [TAB] you'll be able to view your civilisation, then manually switch between goblins and dwarves in addition to freedom of choice for goblins in  adventure-mode, and ensure that you start out inside the goblin civ before testing butchering again.

Code: [Select]

[ENTITY:EVIL]
        [SITE_CONTROLLABLE]
        [ALL_MAIN_POPS_CONTROLLABLE]
Example: Huntable classes of creature - Hunters only pursue unintelligent wildlife and have to get it (with on their end the hunter gurantees death) into the butcher workshop by hauling it back. This screen is on ((O) < (F) < (o)) and all units who are non huntable will be automatically forbidden, including your intellgent life forms that should be butcherable under your ethics. Hunters will pursue zombies because they join this field, including former sentients.


If its not forbidden (as my trolls show) its not counted for being living in use BP by the terminated unit

Animals are read off site pop's and turned into goods = Citizens wear/eat/use outsourced goods = Butchery obviously requires a unit to die actively = Gets bugged because the terminated unit still holds onto the goods as a body.

Ethics is working completely as intended as evidenced by the rest of the worlds interactions in using those materials, your site is not a exception because its a player fortress, but because of the butchered BP materials needed to make the goods.



Above is the same materials from the slaughtered troll in my spoilered detailed log of a modded game as a ethically correct evil goblin faction. All the stuff is untouchable for still being the BP corpse (much of the meat has since rotted away) but the fat and bones are moved to the corpses (not refuse) stockpile along with another sentient (items are not meant to be stored on a strict corpse pile). If this was handled in a second hand nature and sold directly to me without having to slaughter the troll (I did slaughter it successfully, it was killed and harvested a semi-sapient pet as it should on those ethics) then all the goods would be workable, but because the terminated unit is intermittently connected to the parts it can't be undone.



Slaughtered with [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:ACCEPTABLE] as a genuine goblin civ by embarking with it, signing up a butcher and slaughtering it with the (S) key even though there was no prompt to be turned into delicious non huntable creature class gibbets which were left to rot in the open air and whatever else was moved to the corpse pile because its still the same troll that exists in nullspace.

Butchering a loved one or a cherished member of the community does not matter because different butchers who are indisposed can do the job instead (like butchering pet cats), without first knowing the ins and outs of how sentient killing your own kind works by seeing it in action that comment about butchering your relatives 'should be wrong' is a suggestion rather than a constructive comment. (etc - Someone not related to you can do the job, its a personal matter/acceptable/required matter so people wont care or give a hoot about eating their own children's sweetbreads.)

The bodies of those trolls are being sent to the corpses pile because they are still the troll's corpses BP wise (especially with the clothes popping off seemingly after the meat rotted but still attached to the body when it was being butchered). Additionally with sentient ethics its highly rumoured that you can eat invaders when it works right (which is made harder with less sieges now but probably a first priotity thing to try when we think of a workaround to this bug or a eventual fix)

Question for toady - Have you ever thought in the development process for the museum displays about perhaps using mannequins for BP representative clothing displays or training targets?

[Rubik]

Question for toady - Have you ever thought in the development process for the museum displays about perhaps using mannequins for BP representative clothing displays or training targets?

I mean, armor stands are not working for now, but thats theoretically their purpose, to store and show equipment, so we already have that
I would be more interested if you could use statues for armor stands, and have the gold statue of your civ's king hold the relic hammer of chaos, that would be pretty neat

[Max™]

Tossing this into spoilers because it's gotta be annoying folks.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Zombies are indeed edible, though weirdly you can't brag about killing them unless you tell stories about it first. The giant lion was a named beast with nearly a hundred kills that I encountered in the middle of nowhere, it had no ethics at all. I've got all civs controllable anyways, with all sorts of raw modifications, none of them change that you can't eat sapients in adventurer mode when you should be able to.

Can't even do it in arena with creatures that have no civs at all.


Made two goblins, killed one, butchered it, tried to eat it, doesn't work.

It is literally just the presence of the CAN_LEARN tag before death and item.flags1.dead_dwarf=yes after death which control this. World-gen corpses like the skeletons in tombs can be butchered and eaten/turned into jewelry regardless of ethics.

[FantasticDorf]

Yeah this is getting a slog, I don't envy anybody having to go through pages of this. I've put my response in spoilers too

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Arena mode doesn't work because none of the structures outside of arena mode are in place, all of your observations will have to be from adventure mode because ethics from entities doesn't exist to permit it (Its not based in creatures its based in entities in worldgen). At its base form the BP is innate to the creature as defined in the tissue materials.

Code: ( Eyes are directly linked via tissue to the prepared eye meat) [Select]

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:EYE_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:WHITE]
[STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:eye tissue]
[STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:eye tissue]
[STATE_COLOR:LIQUID:WHITE]
[STATE_NAME:LIQUID:n/a]
[STATE_ADJ:LIQUID:n/a]
[STATE_COLOR:GAS:WHITE]
[STATE_NAME:GAS:n/a]
[STATE_ADJ:GAS:n/a]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:7:0:1]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:1]
[SPEC_HEAT:4181]
[IGNITE_POINT:10508]
[MELTING_POINT:NONE]
[BOILING_POINT:NONE]
[HEATDAM_POINT:10250]
[COLDDAM_POINT:9900]
[MAT_FIXED_TEMP:NONE]
[SOLID_DENSITY:500]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:NONE]
[MOLAR_MASS:NONE]
[IMPACT_YIELD:10000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:10000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:10000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:10000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[TENSILE_YIELD:10000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:10000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[TORSION_YIELD:10000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:10000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[SHEAR_YIELD:20000] copied human skin (no data)
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:20000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[BENDING_YIELD:10000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:10000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[MAX_EDGE:0]
[ABSORPTION:100]
[IMPLIES_ANIMAL_KILL]
[ROTS]
[MEAT]
[BUTCHER_SPECIAL:MEAT:NONE]
[MEAT_NAME:prepared:eye:eye]
[EDIBLE_VERMIN]
[EDIBLE_COOKED]

Infact Arena mode is more non-accurate to this bug because combat works properly and there are no terminable states (BP seems to be innately screwy anyway), the ethics in arena are pretty much [ETHICS:NOT_APPLICABLE]. I've already shown this with my aarvark man vs aardvark fights staged in arena mode properly striking down the unit. So on one front the terminable states are not there but the BP even if the ethics were in place would be workable materials (if again, a little bit wierd and posessive)



Which is radically different to this taken in fortress mode combat inside the worldgen with everything happening.



Just to re-iterate, you have to raw edit either your base dwarf race in a new world and go adventurer to try OR switch it up and embark as a goblin faction adventurer to have all access to sentient butchery for really testing. Citizen or bust, anything between (outcast) wont work.

World gen corpses and products have never had a terminated unit ever associated with them so are free, as soon as the terminated unit (the one you kill in order to butcher it) is in place it counts as terminated. Huntable classes of creature have terminated states too, but their bodies are probably ignored by your dead_dwarf function altogether unless they are a factional unit (so basically pets and tamed animals which is a known bug unless they are turned into zombies and eaten, while they are alive and slaughtered is fine, even sentient beings can be slaughtered alive)

[Shonai_Dweller]

Toady have you ever read a Terry Pratchett novel such as any novel from the Discworld series? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld and if so will it influence how you go about myth generation for your worlds?

This question has been bugging me for awhile.

So much so that you already asked it...

Quote from: Untrustedlife
Toady have you ever read discworld?

I think I read one of the books many years ago.  Something Egyptish.

Quote from: TheBiggerFish
Have you considered reading more Discworld books?

I had a few more from when I read the pyramids one (Guards something I think and whatever came next), but that was ~a decade ago and I didn't read them.  Then I didn't circle back around and don't really plan on it.  It's hard to find time.

[Putnam]

Soul data is held by DF.unit which is very wrong right now as i've mentioned before evidenced by this bug report (10059) taking hold and messing up a lot of behaviour and functions.

No.

I am saying no because this is wrong.

This statement itself is wrong. It's wrong in many ways. I can't begin to go into how wrong it is.

Unit soul data for individual units is stored in unit.status.current_soul. There is also a souls vector that may hold multiple souls, but that is as of yet unused.

Zombies do not have souls.

Units having souls is not "very wrong" by any means.

I'm incredibly loathe to say this, but: please do not try to determine the cause of issues if you have absolutely no idea how things actually work under the hood, as you are repeatedly demonstrating is the case.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Would it seem awfully obnoxious to request a mod to move all this tech stuff to a new thread?
It's great to have dialogue on the inner workings of the game, and surely bugs need to be fixed, but it's hard enough as it is to locate concrete info on future plans in the Future of the Fortress thread without wading through pages of technical jargon that makes no sense to a lot of people.

[Max™]

Derail moved: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161408.new#new