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[Putnam]

It's been discussed a thousand times in various topics that could be found by simply searching and the answer in this particular case is "it is much, much, much harder than you think".

[malvado]

It's been discussed a thousand times in various topics that could be found by simply searching and the answer in this particular case is "it is much, much, much harder than you think".

Yes, it's harder than you think, but thats not really the question, the question is "is it not appropiate to start..." instead of waiting to the game reaches a more "finished" state in order of what Toady wants to add of gameplay and features and so on...

[FantasticDorf]

There's also the matter about code efficiency and coding carefully as to try and avoid certain actions repeating (such as pathing to a space through a unpassable object, cancelling then trying the exact same thing again) since even with the best specifications and tweaking on the technical side, if the code is (forgive me for saying such a blasphemous word) 'broken garbage' in terms of how it runs on minimum opt in settings on simple or maximum setting and high spec computers there's nothing you can do to beef up the system as a 'fix' without addressing the game itself not running optimally by design.

Clean up and define the base systems, point out features and non essential features (temperature and weather are deactivatible code for less memory and power as well as 'culling historical figures' which doesn't keep a log of people of no importance) to be within opt in and opt out model of game which in the end will reach more of a audience even as content expands because you can simply either revert to a 'legacy' build or turn off features to conserve power without actually forfeiting much of the product.

Basically DF with minimum settings should ideally by the end product still be as playable as the final full fat release. But this will most likely happen with constant cleanups of the code on top of adapting to new spec settings (64 and maybe even 128 bit if it ever becomes the market norm)

(Theoretically DF could have harbour port fast travel but have active actual boats disabled and still count it as a complete feature for example or introduce multi tile creatures but also the support in the game to keep them as they are with a simple toggle on/off to revert to 1 tile and existing size definitions)

[Bumber]

Making stuff optional is complexity in of itself. You've got to make sure all combinations work, or you get impossible-to-find bugs.

You get two different pathing algorithms for the multi-tile creature feature alone. If you use the same one, then disabling it doesn't optimize much.

[FantasticDorf]

Making stuff optional is complexity in of itself. You've got to make sure all combinations work, or you get impossible-to-find bugs.

You get two different pathing algorithms for the multi-tile creature feature alone. If you use the same one, then disabling it doesn't optimize much.

Perhaps but it might be the only way the game is going to survive on lower spec machines as the complexity rises without forcing everyone to upgrade hardware. Besides you'd think that having a way to manually turn on-off all features would be a MORE compatible way of doing it if it was a complete shut off rather than a partial shutdown.

Go through it all in stages shutting off and bugtesting methodically, more complex maybe but in instances can have simple resolutions.

(look at temprature, barely any bugs surrounding that since it is just turned off/working and anything in the off state can be pinpointed if they are kept completely abstract while in the on/off state rather than it being a turned off but still working feature.)

[Shonai_Dweller]

It's been discussed a thousand times in various topics that could be found by simply searching and the answer in this particular case is "it is much, much, much harder than you think".

Yes, it's harder than you think, but thats not really the question, the question is "is it not appropiate to start..." instead of waiting to the game reaches a more "finished" state in order of what Toady wants to add of gameplay and features and so on...

Before this gets completely out of hand and turns into another long derail (so soon after the last one). He has started. Said so at that 10 year anniversary bash (video can be searched for).

Of course, it seems like he's still in the 'working out what's possible phase', presumably trying out things in his side projects. It's not a simple thing, it will take a lot of time.

He also said there are hundreds of other things that are poorly implemented that improving would improve frame rates in the meantime.

(Questions to Toady should be in lime-green if you want an answer directly).

[malvado]

Fixed with some toad green

Personally I think that it's important to start optimizing and making the different parts of the game ready for use of more "cores" as long as it benefits the users.

[wierd]

I can see some tasks being actor oriented, and thus possible to execute in parallel. There should not be many circumstances where one actor needs to write on another actors data. (Say, having a thought added, or some other well isolated action that is restricted by its very nature.)

However, the shared world space is the problem. The actors need to interact with a global structure for consistency and sanity reasons, so that actor A knows that the item it intends to use is tasked by actor B, and so in and so forth. This leads to potential contention. Who tasks the item first, actor A or actor B? What mechanism arbitrates this to prevent race conditions, etc.

Some parts might be possible to run in parallel, but the root process would get bogged down in sanity checking and access arbitration. Then there is the cache contention issue with multi core chips having unified cache, and the issue of the shared memory bus, coupled with large data structures.

If the width or speed of the memory bus was 4x what is typically seen, and each core had dedicated cache, multicire DF would be very compelling.

That is not the case though, and so the cost is greater than any potential benefit at this time.

[Inarius]

Bear in mind Toady's become a book writing, globe trotting, conference attending celebrity recently. As fans we like to assume this won't effect things and he won't do anything drastic to his schedule like start dating or something, but these things happen so it's really impossible to tell.

True. For the last 10 years he has worked like a beast on the game, but you can't know for the future. It's sure that conferences, travelling are slowing the work, but I know that he already has time every day for "other projects", so let's hope that the book writing won't affect the game development !

[voliol]

How come there are no wooden statues? Is is simply something that is so minor that you've never gotten to it, or do you have any other reasons for not including them? It saddened me when I weren't able to create wooden statues of weeping and suffering elves and trees (to place along the path to my trade depot). 

[The13thRonin]

How come there are no wooden statues? Is is simply something that is so minor that you've never gotten to it, or do you have any other reasons for not including them? It saddened me when I weren't able to create wooden statues of weeping and suffering elves and trees (to place along the path to my trade depot). 

Yes... So much yes.

[Untrustedlife]

How come there are no wooden statues? Is is simply something that is so minor that you've never gotten to it, or do you have any other reasons for not including them? It saddened me when I weren't able to create wooden statues of weeping and suffering elves and trees (to place along the path to my trade depot). 

reminds me of the pigs we lacked for so many releases.

[FantasticDorf]

Are grown objects actually classed as twigs or logs in a certain narrative of elven ethics and grown nature magic? I guess twigs seeds and fruits wouldn't be much more different to livestock laying eggs/shearing livestock, it makes more sense to value the trunk of the tree as the 'body' and hence why elves dont freak out about camp fires etc since even they probably understand the sentiment to keep warm & safe from non-natural presences.

A reasonable suggestion for why we don't have wooden statues is that if they are exposed to the elements & non-treated they'll eventually rot, simulating furniture wear for one object would warrant changing all the rest as a technicality.

[Dirst]

Are grown objects actually classed as twigs or logs in a certain narrative of elven ethics and grown nature magic? I guess twigs seeds and fruits wouldn't be much more different to livestock laying eggs/shearing livestock, it makes more sense to value the trunk of the tree as the 'body' and hence why elves dont freak out about camp fires etc since even they probably understand the sentiment to keep warm & safe from non-natural presences.

A reasonable suggestion for why we don't have wooden statues is that if they are exposed to the elements & non-treated they'll eventually rot, simulating furniture wear for one object would warrant changing all the rest as a technicality.

The canon seems to be that elven "grown" items do not harm the plant in any way, similar to a fruit that dropped off of its own volition.  Now, the fact that it was magically manipulated to form a wooden breastplate, and probably would not have dropped had the elves left it alone, requires a bit of cognitive dissonance.

Reminds me of a quote from Notting Hill...

Keziah: No thanks, I'm a fruitarian.
Max: I didn't realize that.
William: And, um... what exactly is a fruitarian?
Keziah: We believe that fruits and vegetables have feeling so we think cooking is cruel. We only eat things that have actually fallen off a tree or bush - that are, in fact, dead already.
William: Right. Right. Interesting stuff. So, these carrots...
Keziah: Have been murdered, yes.
William: Murdered? Poor carrots. How beastly!


(Note to vegetarians and fruitarians: anything that's still ripening isn't dead yet.)

[wierd]

Those fruit and berry eating birds are horrible, torturing those poor plants and fruits like that.

Warning! Graphic depictions of bird on fruit violence!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgAlnVtKbPQ