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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 192011 times)

Radio Controlled

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #840 on: November 08, 2016, 04:47:24 pm »

Supreme Court gives Theresa May permission to appeal Article 50 ruling
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Farage to lead 100,000-strong march on Supreme Court on day of historic Brexit court hearing
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Finally:
Crown prosecutors consider complaint against Brexit EU referendum campaigns
The letter accuses Vote Leave and Leave.EU of misleading voters
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Wonder if anything will come from this. Kinda doubt it right now, tbh. And then there's the shenanigans some of the remain campaign pulled (the leaflet thing springs to mind, though I'll say now I don't know the details of that), wonder if that will ever get addressed.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #841 on: November 08, 2016, 06:07:41 pm »

I'm a bit sad that the Brexit will be cancelled. Now Amsterdam won't get all the rich bankers.
Be glad, rich bankers are very awkward because you can't live with them nor live without them, better to live in a world where you have no dependency on them to begin with

Reminds me of the broadcast interview with someone outside* the place that they had voted to Leave, in, in a deprived part of Wales where they basically said "What has the EU ever done for this area?", whilst clearly visible behind them on the entry to the obviously new community centre/school/sports venue/whatever was the obvious "Financed by the EU Regional Development Fund", or similar, notice.
* The next day, when it was allowed again to be in the vicinity, as part of covering the result/fallout.
This is a monty python joke

Wonder if anything will come from this. Kinda doubt it right now, tbh. And then there's the shenanigans some of the remain campaign pulled (the leaflet thing springs to mind, though I'll say now I don't know the details of that), wonder if that will ever get addressed.
Probably not, you'd end up having to prosecute everyone from Osborne to Boris and even Cameron
As it stands they've still got too much support from their camps to face legal action, hell look at Blair, he's the blood god to most of the UK but has enough friends still that he's a free man
I'm not even sure what laws could apply to them all under corrupt campaigning practices, as interesting as it would be to see most of the campaigners fined into oblivion :/

*EDIT
Trump has won the US election, which is significant for Brexit because he was the presidential candidate who supported Leave whilst Clinton supported Remain, and Trump went on to say the UK would be at the top of the list for trade negotiations in accordance with the special relationship

Also he kidnapped Farage to help him campaign in Ameriland. This is important as while Trump views the UK very favourably, he may not view our current government favourably, as May alongside most of the MPs on left, right and centre have criticized Trump, and Trump does not handle criticism well at all. That's ok, we'll just send Negotiator Boris to sort things out
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 06:48:20 am by Loud Whispers »
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Codician

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #842 on: November 09, 2016, 07:51:06 am »

There was that study I linked to a couple of pages back that did show that the amount of 'regrexit' or whatever dumb term it has would be enough to change the outcome should another vote be held, but which also nuances this a bit.
For convenience: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159095.msg7222140#msg7222140

Is this like the polls before the Brexit vote where they said it was 60% of people voting to Remain?
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #843 on: November 09, 2016, 08:27:41 am »

There was that study I linked to a couple of pages back that did show that the amount of 'regrexit' or whatever dumb term it has would be enough to change the outcome should another vote be held, but which also nuances this a bit.
For convenience: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159095.msg7222140#msg7222140

Is this like the polls before the Brexit vote where they said it was 60% of people voting to Remain?

Haven't looked into the methodologies of either (though for the latter there were different polls with different methods of varying reliability) so couldn't say for sure. It's true there have been a few 'high-profile' surprises when it comes to predictions from polls recently, but what that means exactly is hard to tell, though I think we'll hear more about that as time goes on. Maybe it's just a fluke of probability.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 08:31:48 am by Radio Controlled »
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #844 on: November 09, 2016, 09:08:19 am »

I uh... may have been a bit hasty when I was teasing you lot for jumping into something crazy with potentially nasty long term ramifications.

My bad.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #845 on: November 09, 2016, 01:11:39 pm »

Honestly I'm kindof relieved that Brexit won't be the worst decision made by a major western democracy this year. And the Special Relationship can continue, although it will now be a lot more like an episode of Jackass.
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #846 on: November 09, 2016, 01:13:35 pm »

Honestly I'm kindof relieved that Brexit won't be the worst decision made by a major western democracy this year. And the Special Relationship can continue, although it will now be a lot more like an episode of Jackass.
Exports have now been confirmed down, so the last lie is exposed. Weak currency exchange =/= booming exports.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #847 on: November 10, 2016, 08:26:46 am »

Haven't looked into the methodologies of either (though for the latter there were different polls with different methods of varying reliability) so couldn't say for sure. It's true there have been a few 'high-profile' surprises when it comes to predictions from polls recently, but what that means exactly is hard to tell, though I think we'll hear more about that as time goes on. Maybe it's just a fluke of probability.
This is a weird phenomenon, I was looking at the Hillary emails and one of the things was a little piece on how they were trying to study public sentiments and voting intentions in the UK, very uncontroversial stuff. What was rather unusual was that they believed that if they were successful in creating a predictive model for the UK, they would be able to apply it to the USA - that is to say, the countries are similar enough that one model crafted here really can apply to over there.

Evidently the model applied to the UK and USA has failed for both
More than 2/3 of all our polls predicted Remain victory and Bookie odds for Remain victory were at 80%, over the pond all polls I saw predicted Clinton victory and odds were at 93% chance of Clinton victory

The cynic in me says polls are used as weapons and so should be ignored wherever possible, and one should always assume they will lose

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #848 on: November 10, 2016, 09:45:43 am »

Okay so what the fuck is going on

I've been hearing news that Brexit is getting cancelled by some insane judges who unfortunately have full support of the pro-Remain government

how did it come to this I thought that EU had finally got rid of the pesky Englishmen
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #849 on: November 10, 2016, 10:01:21 am »

The cynic in me says polls are used as weapons and so should be ignored wherever possible, and one should always assume they will lose
The polls will lose?

What I think you mean is that "whatever the polls say, they are wrong", which is like a more complicated way of saying "when I roll this dice it will never land on the six", and thus just as wrong.

My theory is that perhaps we're moving into a post-status quo world. In modern times, whilst still mostly beholden to Dunbar's Number, we have far more dynamic social networks in which breaking and remaking, by choice or otherwise, and we are more likely to find some transient links far beyond the traditional community, and sometimes a network of networks (now far easier to form) representing off-static pressures rumble the traditionally 'underground' views in ways that only recently has been seen.

See the domino-falls of uprisings, without even a single common goal other than "not what we have now". A far cry from the conformist "my country/party/whatever, right or wrong" that did occasionally break, under tension, now there's a vastly increased affinity with non-locals where the ties that bind 'us' are less significant and the motivations to try something new are distilled into a more potent mix.

The art of polling perhaps needs just to factor in this destabilising effect, more, in calculating the lack of community binding that would previously have meant sampling of a given number of individuals was indeed good enough to determine their physical locality's tendencies, their classes and their superclasses.

(Grrr.  Rather stupidly, I'm trying to write this whilst John Redwood is being condescending to an interviewer in the background. I normally could write this and listen to that at the same time, but just had to pause it as too distracting.)
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #850 on: November 10, 2016, 10:14:03 am »

(Yes, double post, but different issues and this is too long an amendment to tack onto the message I posted before seeing the next thing posted.)

Okay so what the fuck is going on

I've been hearing news that Brexit is getting cancelled by some insane judges who unfortunately have full support of the pro-Remain government

how did it come to this I thought that EU had finally got rid of the pesky Englishmen
Unless there's something breaking, this sounds like the thing from the other day where the government/cabinet (not all pro-Remain, but certainly heading that way) is being asked to make sure that parliament (all MPs, as representatives for their people) get a vote on the shape of the Brexit.

Brexiteers are deathly afraid that this means Brexit will be cancelled, despite their 'overwhelming' public victory, and so are moaning about Bremoaners. In reality, the all it'll do is give the competing views about how-and-how-much we leave a better airing than having the narrow viewpoints of the chief Leave-makers dominate, upsetting potentially even half the "yes, we meant Leave" camp. There's already been a pro-EU MP in an anti-EU constituency who has decided to step down because he wouldn't want to vote his conscience vs. his constituents' wishes, so it's looking like Leave is being directed by on-the-ground feelings, and now we can get a better feeling of whether or not we are willing to trade Equivalence along with Free Movement, or whatever...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 10:16:29 am by Starver »
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #851 on: November 10, 2016, 10:42:57 am »

Speaking for the Brexiteers, we're really not that worried about it mate.
Maybe you're cocksure, but I see a lot of worries. Depends on why the person wanted Brexit. It's not so much a broad church as various competing chapels.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #852 on: November 10, 2016, 11:05:12 am »

The polls will lose?
No, one should always assume they will lose

What I think you mean is that "whatever the polls say, they are wrong", which is like a more complicated way of saying "when I roll this dice it will never land on the six", and thus just as wrong.
Oh I get it, there's a confusion with what I said
Sorry about that
I'm referring to how everyone was making plans on what to do on the event of Leave's defeat, on what to do on the event of Trump's defeat, because they were assuming based off of all the scientific polls that their absurdly high victory chances signaled guaranteed victory. Thus the Leave campaign fought like a cornered animal whilst the Remain campaign was complacent & arrogant, I do not know enough about the American campaigns to talk otherwise but I hear the Republicans were high energy whilst the Democrats were killing their own high energy millennials... Which is an odd strategy, but moving on - one should always assume they're losing. Polls are bullshit, one side uses them to inflate the perception vs actual popularity of their views whilst the other uses them to lull their opponents into arrogant complacency.

Thus LW recommends that one should always assume they are the only person in the world who holds those beliefs, never taking for granted that the rest of the world agrees with you. I took a look at prediction maps for Remain made by Remain for example, forecasting a yellow Britain with only Wales, Northern Ireland and Southwestern England voting to Leave, compared with the reality where even Labour strongholds voted Leave. I took a look at the EC USA map predictions made by Democrats forecasting a sea of blue, contrast with the reality where all but one swing state bled red. I think liberal populations in this century are especially hurt by this informational bubble, because of how their populations are concentrated in dense urban & academic centres. They meet millions everyday who share the same views and same beliefs, never encountering anyone who says anything to the contrary. Couple with the general partitioning of informational communities based off of political belief, this creates a serious shitfest of a political bubble for them. As a consequence they don't understand how few people support them and they also don't know how their opponents think, which in turn can cause alienation as urban centres also act as the conduits for most power - media, financial, political and technological. It would be tough to fix this, as it is not really something you can change, nor do people want to change

A great piece on this from a remainer
Conservatives in the UK don't fall afoul of this as much because they have to understand, learn and work in the liberal cities of the world if they are to get anywhere in life, so they understand their opponents' strategies and thinking. They also understand their own weaknesses, as they see how many do not support their views. And when it comes to online stuff, maybe not basic bitch conservatives, but certainly the more esoteric members are much more averse to informational bubbles - you'll see edgelords on 4chan go to tumblr and reddit, but never the other way around.

IRL I occasionally bring this up in London to my liberal mates and they're not all that interested in these principles, of self-knowledge, self-judgement and learning from your opponents. Basically because they find them boring, disagreeable or bigoted, on the contrary if you look at some of the people in Leave - they were collecting information from people, not polls, for decades. I also find it fun to learn from the free market of ideas personally :>
Also kill snobbery wherever it lies. Arrogance kills. My one observation made clear is that the Tory party has been too long dominated by the smug, and it is only through sheer misfortune that their opponents managed to actually outsmug them, and thank God that May is reversing the smugness. It is rather worrying seeing the liberal reaction to these two defeats, that of Brexit and Trump. Their reaction seems not to have been one of learning, but one of a backlash and desire to be as pure progressive as possible, refusing any compromise whatsoever.
I will add this as I do find it undesirable that the liberal world still wants to be useless and uncompetitive, as in the democratic world where the ruling parties have no opposition, corruption and complacency is abound - and if Labour doesn't unfuck itself in mind, party and soul, then I suspect after May's retirement things will go downhill. You can't have a functioning democratic country if you're content with a large portion of it being dysfunctional lol, and with no oversight, what is functional becomes dysfunctional

My theory is that perhaps we're moving into a post-status quo world.
I was reading the NewStatesman the other day and this was really compelling for me:
The world is changing in ways the British left cannot comprehend.
Quote
A lesson of the past few days is the danger of groupthink. Along with the major international institutions, the assembled might of establishment opinion – in the CBI and TUC, massed legions of economists and a partisan Bank of England – was confident that the existing order here and in Europe would be preserved by promises of unspecified reforms. Until around 2am on the morning of Friday 24 June, the bookies and currency traders followed the playbook that had been given them by the authorities and the pollsters. Then, in a succession of events of a kind that is becoming increasingly common, the script was abruptly torn up. A clear majority of voters had reached to the heart of the situation. Realising that the promises of European reform that had been made were empty, they opted for a sharp shift in direction. The consequences can ­already be observed: rapid political change in Britain and an accelerating process of unravelling in the European Union. The worldwide impact on markets and geopolitics will be long-lasting and profound.
I remember talking in one of the Yurop politics threads, someone thought all my shitposts were of the death of the world, I remember replying how my guesses were not the death of the world, they were the death of the liberal world. Cold war is long over and the liberal world has no desire to change with the times :[

Speaking for the Brexiteers, we're really not that worried about it mate.
Maybe you're cocksure, but I see a lot of worries. Depends on why the person wanted Brexit. It's not so much a broad church as various competing chapels.
The D20 can always roll a 1
Caution is always warranted, and I think May's public statement of confidence does not stand up to reality, the possibility of the High Court ruling in favour of the Commons is possible, and the likelihood that all the MPs professing support for her are lying to her is very likely. Simply put it is better to be in a situation where MPs can't turn back on their word than be in a situation where they can, because they probably will when the stakes are this high

Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #853 on: November 10, 2016, 11:26:24 am »

Sorry, but I didn't get a consistent message from that. My inability, I'm sure. Not ignoring you, just don't actually know what to agree/disagree with you about.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #854 on: November 10, 2016, 11:28:32 am »

Lol, don't you know? LW doesn't have a consistent message, he's just a bot with the periods cut off
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