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[Frumple]

The EU that folks like BoJo have been working hard to create in the minds of the UK public for a couple decades now, probably.

Was actually kinda' neat, in a vaguely appalling way, to find out that a huge chunk of the UK euroskeptic movement got its initial impetus straight from the guy's "reporting" -- scare quotes 'cause much of it was apparently grossly exaggerated or outright fabricated, ahaha. Got away with it, too, and spawned what amounted to a whole generation or two of the exact same sort of thing. Learning about that cut out a lot of my initial confusion on why the UK attitude towards the EU was what it was, actually. 20+ years of a dedicated and incredibly wide spread media smear campaign that isn't beholding itself to silly things like facts, truth, or basic reality can do that...

... also kinda' weird to find out one of the UK's major politicians literally spent a good chunk of his pre-politics career as a yellow journalist, of all things, and just about the worst kind of one t'boot. That'd be setting off all kinds of warning bells in my head, personally, but I guess it was okay for a lot of the UK's population.

[palsch]

The only VAT policy that UKIP wants to remove is making tampons exempt from the VAT.  Which evil law by the EU forces the British government to have a VAT on tampons?

This is actually a thing.

The EU sets a floor rate of VAT of 15% on all goods and services except for a list of exemptions. These exemptions were grandfathered in in 1991, so products that have always had a reduced/zero VAT rate can maintain it, but you can't drop it on anything else below 15%.

Note that there are proposals in Brussels to relax this, either by granting greater general flexibility of VAT rates as a whole or by regular revision of the list of VAT exemptions.

Also note that the UK VAT rate is 20% outside exemptions, so there is room to drop it at least 5% on any goods they choose.

[mainiac]

Great Scott!

[Max™]

Well, I'm only like 1/4th Scot, but yeeeess?

[mainiac]

I meant to indicate surprise at existence of something.  As in the classic expression

"Max(TM) quadrupled, they do exist!"

[ChairmanPoo]

I think that in the long, long run Brexit is actually a pretty terrible idea. An increasingly integrated Europe is a good thing, is it not? Nobody is looking to erase anyone's cultural identity, and this is a huge setback on a global scale. I don't understand why so many people are nationalistic. As an American I wouldn't care if I lived in a United States of the Western Hemisphere.

You'll note that the EU turns a blind eye toward France's ridiculous cultural exception stuff and their suppression of Basque, Breton, and Occitan cultural identity.

Just curious how you believe France suppresses Basque identity. I was in France last year for a couple of weeks. Toulouse has street signs in Basque, still. I heard people speaking Basque. Now, maybe those are pretty weak allowances for culture, but, what other examples do you know of? Seems like a good way to NOT suppress a culture is to let their language flourish on your streets. For reference I was in Spain as well around the same time, and it was certainly Basque-y-er but not so much that a stupid American like me could tell. If anything, I saw less mixing of cultures in Spain and Basque areas than I did in France.

In the last 40 years Spain has definitedly been more tolerant of basque cultural identity than France (if only because the latter is much more centralized).  Previous to that not so much, for obvious reasons

[scriver]

I think that in the long, long run Brexit is actually a pretty terrible idea. An increasingly integrated Europe is a good thing, is it not? Nobody is looking to erase anyone's cultural identity, and this is a huge setback on a global scale. I don't understand why so many people are nationalistic. As an American I wouldn't care if I lived in a United States of the Western Hemisphere.

There is nothing inherently good about a more "integrated" Europe. Whether or not it would be a good thing would depend of the attributes of the union - and the way they seem to be heading today they are not good.

As for repressing cultural identities; The ability for a people to govern themselves, the ability to make your own laws, policies, and shape your state and government, are some of the most direct and important aspects of a culture. The EU are repressing it's smaller members' identities just by existing.

Lastly, regarding your last sentence... The US is one of the most nationalistic countries in the world. "As an American" you should be intimately familiar with why people are nationalists.

Nobody is looking to erase anyone's cultural identity

Well leftists are generally okay with the idea that a nation can have many different cultures that take aspects from each other but aren't homogeneous.  So they are fine with ideas like Muslims moving to western and northern European countries.

Some people dont seem to think such coexistence is practical.

The EU is not leftist by any means. It is a very right-wing, neoliberal institution. It has repeatedly forced actual left-inclined countries, such as the Scandinavian ones, to be less leftist.

[Max™]

I meant to indicate surprise at existence of something.  As in the classic expression

"Max(TM) quadrupled, they do exist!"

I'm a classic expression AND a great Scot?

Man, I'm gonna carry you in my pocket as a self-esteem booster.

[Orange Wizard]

As for repressing cultural identities; The ability for a people to govern themselves, the ability to make your own laws, policies, and shape your state and government, are some of the most direct and important aspects of a culture. The EU are repressing it's smaller members' identities just by existing.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. Government is only a small part of culture. Music, art, literature, language, and so on, are all vastly more important parts of a cultural group's identity than self-government.

[palsch]

Since the leave vote passed, has the UKIP campaign introduced any legislation to do a thing about the fucking fishing rights?

Figured I'd have a go at this one as well.


UKIP only have one MP and he can't introduce any legislation. Outside of government, bills are proposed through private member bills (wiki page chosen for use of the word 'shenanigans') and Douglas Carswell doesn't have any to use to my knowledge.

This seems to be UKIPs proposals regarding fisheries, not exactly legislative language, let alone possible given that UK fisheries are always going to be subject to international agreements. Fish don't exactly respect national waters and scientific stock management (in co-ordination with other nations) is critical.

Note that Farage did sit on the fisheries committee in the European Parliament and didn't bother to attend their meetings, so it is debatable how much he gives a fuck about British fishermen given he won't speak up for them in a body that might actually be able to exercise some power in their favour.

This is a strong argument in favour of EU fisheries management from a UK perspective. A lot of the problems fishermen (especially small, independent fishermen) have is down to the British management of our quotas. We essentially privatised them and allowed a few large companies/trawlers to buy up the rights to our stocks. This is why one Dutch boat accounts for 23% of the British quota. Greenpeace is actually suing the UK under EU law for mismanaging our quota.

[Sergarr]

There is nothing inherently good about a more "integrated" Europe.

It'll be a more powerful Western institution, and a more powerful Western institution can better achieve the Western progressive policies. Western progressive policies are inherently good, therefore, there is everything inherently good about a more "integrated" Europe. QED.

As for repressing cultural identities; The ability for a people to govern themselves, the ability to make your own laws, policies, and shape your state and government, are some of the most direct and important aspects of a culture. The EU are repressing it's smaller members' identities just by existing.

The ability for people to govern themselves is irrelevant in the face of necessity to further the cause of social and technological progress. EU is already providing enough ways for even the smallest states to affect its policies as a whole, so I don't see what are you complaining about.

Lastly, regarding your last sentence... The US is one of the most nationalistic countries in the world. "As an American" you should be intimately familiar with why people are nationalists.

American nationalism is different from most other kinds of nationalism, because it is inherently right. American nationalism is a method of keeping the best country in the world, USA, together and set on a course to achieve the better future as fast as possible. Furthermore, it's also superior to smaller kinds of nationalisms - you can see it in USA, where people are first Americans, second - members of whatever state they are, and only third - people of the whatever ordinary nationality they were before they or their family become the Americans.

In general, Europe needs more nationalism like that - the one that would tell people to accept the identity of being European before everything else. I can understand the practical obstacles that prevent such super-identity from emerging - namely, the lack of singular language that could be used by everyone, and the entrenched interests of old sub-European nationalistic institutions - but they need to be overcome in order to further the cause of the West. A weak disjointed Europe cannot do so as effectively as a strong unified Europe.

[Orange Wizard]

American nationalism is different from most other kinds of nationalism, because it is inherently right. American nationalism is a method of keeping the best country in the world, USA, together and set on a course to achieve the better future as fast as possible. Furthermore, it's also superior to smaller kinds of nationalisms - you can see it in USA, where people are first Americans, second - members of whatever state they are, and only third - people of the whatever ordinary nationality they were before they or their family become the Americans.

American nationalism is the same as any other nationalism: ignorant of reality and painfully obnoxious.

[Sergarr]

American nationalism is different from most other kinds of nationalism, because it is inherently right. American nationalism is a method of keeping the best country in the world, USA, together and set on a course to achieve the better future as fast as possible. Furthermore, it's also superior to smaller kinds of nationalisms - you can see it in USA, where people are first Americans, second - members of whatever state they are, and only third - people of the whatever ordinary nationality they were before they or their family become the Americans.

American nationalism is the same as any other nationalism: ignorant of reality and painfully obnoxious.

No it is not. America is a country that has single-handedly turned the course of history, and the greatness of American technological progress is self-evident, given that you're currently using a USA-developed device with USA-developed programs, and send us messages through a USA-developed communication system "Internet".

To say that it is just the same as any other nationalism is to be ignorant of the very reality you're living in.

[Orange Wizard]

quality poe

[evilcherry]

American nationalism is different from most other kinds of nationalism, because it is inherently right. American nationalism is a method of keeping the best country in the world, USA, together and set on a course to achieve the better future as fast as possible. Furthermore, it's also superior to smaller kinds of nationalisms - you can see it in USA, where people are first Americans, second - members of whatever state they are, and only third - people of the whatever ordinary nationality they were before they or their family become the Americans.

American nationalism is the same as any other nationalism: ignorant of reality and painfully obnoxious.

No it is not. America is a country that has single-handedly turned the course of history, and the greatness of American technological progress is self-evident, given that you're currently using a USA-developed device with USA-developed programs, and send us messages through a USA-developed communication system "Internet".

To say that it is just the same as any other nationalism is to be ignorant of the very reality you're living in.

America, as a state, not as an identity.



I have zero problem with cultural genocide.