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[Azkanan]

If there's anything I've took away from watching this stuff, it's that the only good candidate for a head of government that the UK seems to have right now appears to be Sturgeon. And there's some obvious problems with that option :V

Strangely, you're right. Complete outside idea, but not only is she a humane politician, she's strong-willed, no-nonsense and would keep Scotland in the UK.

Meanwhile, stranger dangers are arising in meltdown-country labour and the tory leaders are cropping up and dropping down like waves in a pool party.

[ChairmanPoo]

Scottish Parliament votes 92 to 0 to give Scot Govt a mandate to do all it can to keep Scotland in the EU.

wew m8

I believe the Tories abstained.

There's quite a hubbub at the moment about Mariano Rajoy's emphatic denouncement of the idea of Scotland negotiating with the EU - saying that we're a part of the UK and we should be treated as such. Francois Hollande is saying the same thing. Juncker on the other hand is saying "Scotland has won the right to be listened to" or something.

I am not surprised that the Usual Suspects are coming out in force to discourage treating Scotland like a country in any way, but I am not so sure Unionists should be celebrating these snubbings as they are. To be told "You can't get negotiate unless you're independent" kills their hopes of staying in the EU as a part of the UK, like a reverse-Denmark/Greenland scenario. I have also read that claims of a potential Spanish veto on Scottish EU membership would kill Spain's arguments against Catalan sovereignty; they argue the issue is purely constitutional, because under Spanish law a province can only become independent if all regions vote on it, hence their support of the Serbian position in Kosovo.

If however they attempted to block Scottish membership of the EU in a situation where we have constitutionally become independent i.e. through democratic referendum, they will show that they are actually not constitutionalists, rather they are opposed to national self determination and then the Catalans can take their challenge to an international court.

No. Spanish law does not recognize any territorial independence whatsoever, and a surprisingly large chunk of the population subscribe to this philosophy. Stating that countries such as Canada or the UK have done binding independence referendums without breaking up, and, indeed, managing to let steam off social tensions in the process, will only get you scoffed at.

I used to think that most people werent like that, but then I was sorely disappointed in the last 15 years

Wasn't there a Spanish forumgoer here before who argued that because the Catalans never had their own sovereign state in the first place, they get no right to have one now? It isn't the only time I've heard that argument, and it makes no sense to me.

Possibly. The "historicity" card is oft played by nationalisms both centrifuge and centripete.
But as far as the law is concerned the matter is much simpler: the Spanish constitution has no provision about regional secession, has a specific provission about being "indivisible" in article II, and with both major traditional political parties (the conservative PP and the "centre-left" PSOE) holding a majority in both chambers its unlikely to get amended. Not only because of the party line, but because making noise about secessionist movements in Spain is one of their most useful tools for mobilizing their bumpkin voter base.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I think that in the long, long run Brexit is actually a pretty terrible idea. An increasingly integrated Europe is a good thing, is it not? Nobody is looking to erase anyone's cultural identity, and this is a huge setback on a global scale. I don't understand why so many people are nationalistic. As an American I wouldn't care if I lived in a United States of the Western Hemisphere.

[Max™]

Glory to the Maple Leaf Empire!

[Baffler]

I think that in the long, long run Brexit is actually a pretty terrible idea. An increasingly integrated Europe is a good thing, is it not? Nobody is looking to erase anyone's cultural identity, and this is a huge setback on a global scale. I don't understand why so many people are nationalistic. As an American I wouldn't care if I lived in a United States of the Western Hemisphere.

You'll note that the EU turns a blind eye toward France's ridiculous cultural exception stuff and their suppression of Basque, Breton, and Occitan cultural identity.

[mainiac]

Nobody is looking to erase anyone's cultural identity

Well leftists are generally okay with the idea that a nation can have many different cultures that take aspects from each other but aren't homogeneous.  So they are fine with ideas like Muslims moving to western and northern European countries.

Some people dont seem to think such coexistence is practical.

[nenjin]

I think that in the long, long run Brexit is actually a pretty terrible idea. An increasingly integrated Europe is a good thing, is it not? Nobody is looking to erase anyone's cultural identity, and this is a huge setback on a global scale. I don't understand why so many people are nationalistic. As an American I wouldn't care if I lived in a United States of the Western Hemisphere.

You'll note that the EU turns a blind eye toward France's ridiculous cultural exception stuff and their suppression of Basque, Breton, and Occitan cultural identity.

Just curious how you believe France suppresses Basque identity. I was in France last year for a couple of weeks. Toulouse has street signs in Basque, still. I heard people speaking Basque. Now, maybe those are pretty weak allowances for culture, but, what other examples do you know of? Seems like a good way to NOT suppress a culture is to let their language flourish on your streets. For reference I was in Spain as well around the same time, and it was certainly Basque-y-er but not so much that a stupid American like me could tell. If anything, I saw less mixing of cultures in Spain and Basque areas than I did in France.

[Baffler]

Much of it is in the restriction of non-French languages. Official documents make exclusive use of the French language and the state actively promotes the French language over all others, with things like a quota system that restricts (but does not forbid) broadcasts in not-French. France has a long history of looking down on them and others as "provincial" and even now mainstream politics considers acknowledging the existence of those minorities as damaging to the unity of the nation. That article focuses mostly on Bretons but the issue is touched on.

[mainiac]

When I was in France as a teenager I saw approximately one billion publicly funded cultural thingies.  Museums for the quaint culture of the norman fishermen, castles full of exhibits to teach you about the cathars.  God my hosts were amazingly good at boring a 14 year old.

But the point is that France has the same kind of love hate relationship with local cultures that you will see everywhere.  The really big wave of trying to stamp out the local cultures was in the early 19th century and a generation later you see cultural pushback with novels like Les Mis and realist art like The Gleaners venerating the provincial culture.  For the people of that generation these were works expressing cultural frustration against the establishment like Pink Houses or Born in the USA.

I imagine that North Korea is the only nation in history not to be torn between nationalism and diversity.

[DG]

If you're wondering "why else if not racism?" for Leave votes, this article article gives some ideas and examples:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-01/dal-santo-brexit-was-about-making-politics-democratic-again/7559954

[Neonivek]

If you're wondering "why else if not racism?" for Leave votes, this article article gives some ideas and examples:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-01/dal-santo-brexit-was-about-making-politics-democratic-again/7559954

Well it does bring up many other movements which were labled racist even though the major reasons for the event weren't such as *Redacted because like HECK I am going to have people crawl up my throat for not believing in revisionist history*

But I'll put it this way
If the Leavers win: It was a victory for Democrasy and a triumph over tyranny.
If the Stays win: It was a triumph over racism, xenophobia, and ethnocentrism.

That is just how history works

[mainiac]

If you're wondering "why else if not racism?" for Leave votes, this article article gives some ideas and examples:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-01/dal-santo-brexit-was-about-making-politics-democratic-again/7559954

Okay, let's do a some questions to test this theory:
Did pro-Brexit voters strongly correlate with pro-electoral reform voters?
Since the leave vote passed, has the UKIP campaign introduced any legislation to do a thing about the fucking fishing rights?
The only VAT policy that UKIP wants to remove is making tampons exempt from the VAT.  Which evil law by the EU forces the British government to have a VAT on tampons?

[Neonivek]

Well Mainiac that is mostly because the influence of the EU is used mostly as a scapegoat for the current problems happening in the UK.

That and it is the principal of the thing. Sure the UK are being told to do what they are already going to do. But they don't want to be told what to do.

[mainiac]

I'm still waiting for evidence that they were ever told what to do.  Which evil European 'crat said "give your fish to the dutch".  Please name names.  Give a quote.  Give specifics.

And the VAT thing.  You want to lower the VAT?  The only mention I can see is removing it for tampons.  Which law says you couldn't have done that.  Which evil politician.  Who is this revolution against?

[TheBiggerFish]

Better PTW this.