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[Aukustus]

I heard this could be a good place to post my roguelike I've been working on for some time.

The Temple of Torment (http://www.thetempleoftorment.net/) is a fantasy roguelike with a stronger focus on RPG side meaning that there are a lot more dialogues/quests with moral choices.

In general it's a roguelike that has a full blown western open world RPG built around it; earlier in the development it was a single dungeon roguelike, but I wanted to create a static world around it and explain the proceduralness with lore.

So how is it a roguelike? There are optional ASCII graphics, it's turn-based, has an optional perma-death with the Hardcore game mode, and it's grid-based.

So, what's the in-game story? An early 17th century human world invaded by forces of Hell, adventurers are trying to enter the title location to descend the 50 level dungeon to end the invasion.

Influences are ADOM, Diablo, and D&D CRPG's (mainly Baldur's Gates and PlaceScape: Torment)

So far the things that are in the game:

• 12 Character classes inspired by D&D and Pathfinder
• Over 30 quests with some having multiple endings based on different actions
• Deities
• Alignment system
• Hireable party members with their own morals that can conflict with player's choices
• Races are implemented as human cultural backgrounds with different bonuses
• ASCII and tile graphics
• Over 20 world map locations
• Talent and Spell system
• Alchemy to craft potions
• Early firearms

There isn't a linux build, but I've tested it can be played with Wine, tested both on Debian and Linux Mint.

Screenshots can be found in here: http://www.thetempleoftorment.net/screenshots/

[Mephisto]

"Works in Wine" does not mean "works on Linux". Pet peeve of mine.

[Aukustus]

"Works in Wine" does not mean "works on Linux". Pet peeve of mine.

Yeah, that's true. I had trouble making a real linux build so Wine compability is the best I have currently.

[Frumple]

Oh hey, this thing. And not a bot! That's always good, heh.

Looks like the last time I played was... beta 101? Stable 050? Somewhere along there. Didn't mind it, back then, that much! Playing felt fairly clumsy, just UI/interface wise, but it wasn't that bad. Don't recall getting very far into it, though. Screenshots look a lot different now, so I guess it's a decent time to check in on it again.

[Aukustus]

Oh hey, this thing. And not a bot! That's always good, heh.

Looks like the last time I played was... beta 101? Stable 050? Somewhere along there. Didn't mind it, back then, that much! Playing felt fairly clumsy, just UI/interface wise, but it wasn't that bad. Don't recall getting very far into it, though. Screenshots look a lot different now, so I guess it's a decent time to check in on it again.

Truly a lot has changed. And of course feedback will change things since I'm making this for players, not for myself. But, since this is libtcod based there'll be some clumsiness that I cannot fix. Hopefully there are not too many unfixable things though.

[Frumple]

Well, the immediate feedback checking stable 091 is that there seems to still be no autoexplore and that'd be incredibly nice to have

It's actually one of the biggest barriers of entry for me, at least, these days... after spending a lot of time playing RLs with the feature over the last few years, it's become very painful to play ones that don't (somewhat literally, as I'm getting older and the wrists et al are not quite as tolerant of so many button presses as they were). So much more time (and more importantly, button presses) spent getting places, so much easier to fatfinger past something and nearly die (I actually just did that with a bee :V), just so much more attention having to be given to stuff that's really just sorta' uninteresting, or at least has very little actual interaction involved.

High level play it's a detriment, sure, but... well, I don't think most RL players are giving their A game at all times, and I know I just kinda' don't enjoy it anymore (beat DSCC, angband varient or two, Incursion a couple dozen times or more, etc., etc. M'content with what I've managed, ha) -- perfectly fine sacrificing a fair amount of optimal play for not having to press as many buttons or pay quite so much attention, hehe.

... basically, if it's not an intended feature, maybe consider it. Libtcod wise, I'm pretty sure there's a couple other RLs out there using the base that has it, if other implementations would help puzzle out how to fit it in... coulda' sworn at least BRogue has it, at least, and I'm fairly sure that was libtcod based to some degree.

E: Though I do get the mouse controls are supposed to fill in a fair amount of the functionality there... thing is, I'unno about other folks, but I really don't like using the mouse if it can be avoided. Among other things, this is a laptop with a touchpad, heh.

Other maybe ideas... if you've got difficulty modes, maybe consider adding a similar modifier for certain mechanics? Like, I'm pretty sure I'll end up cheat engining away the food/water clock at some point, just because it's a mechanic that violently irritates me, and it'd be nice to just... toggle it off. Haven't played enough to see what else it'd be a decent candidate for somethin' like that, but it's an idea to consider, perhaps.

E2: Also, ah. Is there some way to check character statistics and whatnot? I've apparently contracted a disease and I can't seem to puzzle out how to see... anything related to current effects, XP to level (or at least amount gained), etc., etc., etc.

E3: Also also, it'd be nice if the readme/help stuff was somewhere outside the game, too. Text file to open up, etc. Faster to alt-tab than press ? followed by appropriate options, heh. Right hand's on the numpad, et al.

[Aukustus]

Well, the immediate feedback checking stable 091 is that there seems to still be no autoexplore and that'd be incredibly nice to have

I actually tested it at some point, holding a certain key and the player character would move into the closest unexplored tile and then repeat it until there are no unexplored tiles. If I recall correctly I ditched it because I couldn't make it without holding the auto-explore key down (it should be a single press, though the movement with mouse is with holding the button down, I'll perhaps add it still that way with holding the auto-explore key down). I'll definitely return into it as the first thing for the next release.

Other maybe ideas... if you've got difficulty modes, maybe consider adding a similar modifier for certain mechanics? Like, I'm pretty sure I'll end up cheat engining away the food/water clock at some point, just because it's a mechanic that violently irritates me, and it'd be nice to just... toggle it off. Haven't played enough to see what else it'd be a decent candidate for somethin' like that, but it's an idea to consider, perhaps.

I can probably add a game mode without any food/water clocks. Though I have trouble naming the mode since the naming Standard/Hardcore pretty much comes from Diablos and there's no third word for a game mode. Perhaps a custom mode where things like perma-death, food, water and some other things can be toggled could be implemented.

E2: Also, ah. Is there some way to check character statistics and whatnot? I've apparently contracted a disease and I can't seem to puzzle out how to see... anything related to current effects, XP to level (or at least amount gained), etc., etc., etc.

Sure, press 'c'. Also the gravestone icon if you use a mouse.

Edit: for the E3: Can do.

[zaimoni]

Good to see you here, Aukustus.

Autoexplore: I'm pretty sure the single-keypress version is meant; the canonical one is Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.  The autoexplore there was fixed to not be preventable instant-death to use on normal levels between 0.7 and 0.8.  (I provided the one-concept fix on USENET: Do Not Step Into A Square Not Verified To Be Safe From A One Hit Kill Melee Attack.  It's the same problem that prohibits cutting corners when running in Zangband and descendants [death swords].  That this made autoexplore 100% unusable to certain playstyles was *not* a trivial calculation to the responding developer, even with the example in the OP; it took two iterations to get the basic concept across, and one more to refine it to something implementable.)

In general, an autoexplore that is not player-killing requires a reasonably good non-combat bot with a reliable self-recognition of when it is invalid.

[Aukustus]

Good to see you here, Aukustus.

Autoexplore: I'm pretty sure the single-keypress version is meant; the canonical one is Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.  The autoexplore there was fixed to not be preventable instant-death to use on normal levels between 0.7 and 0.8.  (I provided the one-concept fix on USENET: Do Not Step Into A Square Not Verified To Be Safe From A One Hit Kill Melee Attack.  It's the same problem that prohibits cutting corners when running in Zangband and descendants [death swords].  That this made autoexplore 100% unusable to certain playstyles was *not* a trivial calculation to the responding developer, even with the example in the OP; it took two iterations to get the basic concept across, and one more to refine it to something implementable.)

In general, an autoexplore that is not player-killing requires a reasonably good non-combat bot with a reliable self-recognition of when it is invalid.

I'm planning to break the autoexplore loop if an enemy comes into the view.

I found the old code I used to determine the closest unexplored tile, perhaps I'll manage to do it this time correctly with a single press.

[A Thing]

Looks interesting, I'll edit my feedback into this post later.

Started off as a gunslinger, and they don't seem to be all that good compared to the fighter and sorcerer companions I got. They rarely hit and when they do hit it doesn't seem to hit that hard (unless the rifle is significantly better which it didn't seem to be.) Their stats don't seem to effect their guns (according to the description of dexterity anyway) and they don't start off with magic or alchemy. I guess their advantage is being ranged? Problem being is that they have to reload and that significantly mitigates whatever advantage over melee they had.

Enchanted Forest was dull to explore, maybe add in some magic groves or something? Besides the Nymph at the end (who I guess was the boss) it was unrewarding besides in XP.

Food\Water system just adds busywork and isn't very threatening at all. Possibly could be fixed by not having it affect you on the overworld and making it decrease faster in combat areas.

There are a lot of empty buildings with no items, NPCs, or furniture. Maybe remove them? They definitely don't add life to the towns and unless they are populated later or something they might as well not exist.

Bandit Mine looked more like a cave than a mine, but besides that there is little to say.

The Farmer's invested farm was just as advertised. Couldn't find the cellar though as it was either extremely well hidden or glitched.

Last thing I have to say is that the magic companions need to be programmed to run away from fighters, because currently they will happily kill themselves in the melee range of fighters. If that can't be added reasonably a push command would also solve the problem.

[zaimoni]

Food/water system: This is only a material threat in the overworld, at least in earlier versions.  News of its nerfing is unwelcome on my end.

[Frumple]

Eh... it'd probably be undesirable reworking, but changing the food system into something besides a clock might be nice. Buffs when full (faster regeneration, ferex, possibly with the base rate reduced to some degree.), a secondary potion style system with particular effects regulated to them (so maybe you use some of those forest roots to make infravision granting pies or somethin'), something like incursion's system where food isn't used nearly as often, but is fairly impactful instead of what amounts to busywork (with ToT, I could see something where you have to basically have to spend rations/water to enter a non-town area, or take penalties... and maybe have area tailored ones that give bonuses, too, but there'd be no time based consumption), etc., so forth, so on.

Conceptually/thematically (even beyond how much I dislike how it pushes you forward), it's always kinda' bothered me how much trouble these dungeon wrecking trainwrecks have managing basic logistics. Food (and ammo) almost always seems to be the one factor in RLs that use it where the character is having trouble doing ridiculously mundane things like foraging, keeping their quiver full, or remembering to pack a lunch. I... y'know, if I'm going to be managing consumables, I want the consumables to be meaningful, yeah? Special arrows, heat seeking bullets, dragon hearts, boiled nymph in a bottle, those I don't mind working with, but the Nth hundredth wooden arrow or thousandth food ration is just... underwhelming, I guess.

It's not quite as annoying when it's at least symmetrical (ala incursion, ferex, but it handles ammo better than almost any roguelike I've seen... besides ToME 4, anyway) but most of the time (and it appears to be true with ToT) the enemies just kinda' have infinite ammo or whatev', and never have to deal with anything survival wise. It's basically just a punishment for the player, instead of a full system where you have meaningful player/enemy interactions involving it.

[Aukustus]

Started off as a gunslinger, and they don't seem to be all that good compared to the fighter and sorcerer companions I got. They rarely hit and when they do hit it doesn't seem to hit that hard (unless the rifle is significantly better which it didn't seem to be.) Their stats don't seem to effect their guns (according to the description of dexterity anyway) and they don't start off with magic or alchemy. I guess their advantage is being ranged? Problem being is that they have to reload and that significantly mitigates whatever advantage over melee they had.

Gunslinger is one of the classes that start weak but end very powerful. Muskets are also more unaccurate than bows and crossbows since they are fairly unadvanced guns. But perhaps I need to change something to make it equally good as others in the start.

Enchanted Forest was dull to explore, maybe add in some magic groves or something? Besides the Nymph at the end (who I guess was the boss) it was unrewarding besides in XP.

I intended it as a sort of tutorial area. But I see what you mean.

Food\Water system just adds busywork and isn't very threatening at all. Possibly could be fixed by not having it affect you on the overworld and making it decrease faster in combat areas.

Food and water system is built to be realistic and it is tied to the in-game clock. One turn is 6 seconds so the food clock advances very slowly in other places than overworld. In overworld it decreases faster since one turn is 20 minutes, but it doesn't now decrease as fast as spending 20 minutes in other areas would. One food ration is about 6 hours worth of exploring.

There are a lot of empty buildings with no items, NPCs, or furniture. Maybe remove them? They definitely don't add life to the towns and unless they are populated later or something they might as well not exist.

I'm still not sure what to do with the empty buildings, but I'm not removing them. It's more about showing only necessary stuff when having only some of the buildings populated. But surely there'll be more npc's at some point.

The Farmer's invested farm was just as advertised. Couldn't find the cellar though as it was either extremely well hidden or glitched.

I believe you mean the quest where you must find a hidden gold chest? It's one of the quests that require the players to figure out it, there are multiple clues though, also in the diary.

Last thing I have to say is that the magic companions need to be programmed to run away from fighters, because currently they will happily kill themselves in the melee range of fighters. If that can't be added reasonably a push command would also solve the problem.

Yeah, the companion AI is fairly bad in that situation. I must figure out a way to change it.

[Aukustus]

Eh... it'd probably be undesirable reworking, but changing the food system into something besides a clock might be nice. Buffs when full (faster regeneration, ferex, possibly with the base rate reduced to some degree.), a secondary potion style system with particular effects regulated to them (so maybe you use some of those forest roots to make infravision granting pies or somethin'), something like incursion's system where food isn't used nearly as often, but is fairly impactful instead of what amounts to busywork (with ToT, I could see something where you have to basically have to spend rations/water to enter a non-town area, or take penalties... and maybe have area tailored ones that give bonuses, too, but there'd be no time based consumption), etc., so forth, so on.

Conceptually/thematically (even beyond how much I dislike how it pushes you forward), it's always kinda' bothered me how much trouble these dungeon wrecking trainwrecks have managing basic logistics. Food (and ammo) almost always seems to be the one factor in RLs that use it where the character is having trouble doing ridiculously mundane things like foraging, keeping their quiver full, or remembering to pack a lunch. I... y'know, if I'm going to be managing consumables, I want the consumables to be meaningful, yeah? Special arrows, heat seeking bullets, dragon hearts, boiled nymph in a bottle, those I don't mind working with, but the Nth hundredth wooden arrow or thousandth food ration is just... underwhelming, I guess.

It's not quite as annoying when it's at least symmetrical (ala incursion, ferex, but it handles ammo better than almost any roguelike I've seen... besides ToME 4, anyway) but most of the time (and it appears to be true with ToT) the enemies just kinda' have infinite ammo or whatev', and never have to deal with anything survival wise. It's basically just a punishment for the player, instead of a full system where you have meaningful player/enemy interactions involving it.

The current food system is something I wish to keep, but nothing prevents from improving it and adding more items. At least more consumables will be coming with special projectiles. I wonder if the food/water system can be improved somehow without removing parts from it.

The enemies do have infinite ammo and mana, but it's because of preventing making mage/archer fights become too easy if they finish all their arrows or mana.

[Frumple]

Yeah, fair enough. If y'wanted to give enemies limited ammo, though, but keep fights from being too easy (mind, I'd call that being pretty okay, m'self -- if you can manage to drain off their resources without dying, some kind of benefit to it would probably be appropriate, heh), it'd mostly just be a matter of having them change behavior when they're low/empty.  Casters having backup wands or emergency spells that cause them to hulk out (or the demon they're contracted with seeing a opportunity to get free and tear their way out*, chestburster style, gods they pray to, etc., etc.), archers that have hidden or centralized caches of ammo elsewhere on the level (and/or backup weapons, guard animals that stick close to them the they sic on you, fallback positions with allies/traps they run towards, and so on) that you could loot yourself, and continuing onwards. Things don't necessarily have to become easier, or at least not significantly so, to make it so enemies are working under at least the illusion of the same systems you are.

Also, starving/desperate enemies that are working under low food/water conditions should totally be a thing, as well as the occasional item or somethin' to induce it. Could even repurpose enemies you see elsewhere with new abilities (animals becoming more desperate, diseased, etc.) that they'd actually get if you managed to get 'em into such conditions outside the areas/particular encounters. Maybe even class based effects of such a nature, or ways (quests, items, special encounters, etc.) to obtain them through play for your character. Stuff like that would make the system less one sided, more interesting, yeah? Less punishing the player for playing the "wrong" way/too slow/etc., more an actual set of mechanics you can actively interact with and that has a meaningful player/enemy and/or enemy/world component rather than just (entirely negative) player/world and nothing else.

*This would be amazing to see implemented for a player class, actually, or something you could acquire in-game. You get in dire straights, push things to far/die, and then you find yourself playing the rest of the game as a rival demon looking to undermine an opposing faction's presence in the material plane. Food/water system would probably change... maybe kills or corpse eating to restore food/water -- I could totally see something where a demon has reduced consumption rate, but has to kill casters for "water" and other stuff for food, ferex.