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Author Topic: Regarding off-site scholars and bards  (Read 5780 times)

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2016, 02:22:06 pm »

Who cares about visitors? All they do is waste your resources and keep your dwarves from working by telling stories. Death to all visitors.

BLAZCOOKS features a multi-z tavern the size of a housing block. Also I want other races to live here.
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Archereon

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2016, 02:28:56 pm »

Who cares about visitors? All they do is waste your resources and keep your dwarves from working by telling stories. Death to all visitors.

Because getting human citizens means you can finally do something with the piles of oversized armor you have lying around from the last undead siege?


Also, while elves generally aren't the best company, they have a significantly higher base speed than other intelligent creatures, meaning any elf you find that happens to take after Cacame will be much more productive than your typical dwarf if you put them in a position that requires them to travel any significant distance.


Also, sometimes it's not about what's efficient; having a cosmopolitan fort can make for an interesting change of pace.



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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2016, 03:31:00 pm »

Who cares about visitors? All they do is waste your resources and keep your dwarves from working by telling stories. Death to all visitors.
Because getting human citizens means you can finally do something with the piles of oversized armor you have lying around from the last undead siege?
Also, while elves generally aren't the best company, they have a significantly higher base speed than other intelligent creatures, meaning any elf you find that happens to take after Cacame will be much more productive than your typical dwarf if you put them in a position that requires them to travel any significant distance.
Also, sometimes it's not about what's efficient; having a cosmopolitan fort can make for an interesting change of pace.

+1. Anyway, I'll report back eventually.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

thegoatgod_pan

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2016, 09:24:01 am »

My fort got two sieges and several megabeasts but no visitors, scholars or otherwise. i have a functioning Inn and Library, so no clear reason why, however I could be too far from other civs, since the only merchants who came were dwarves.
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Flarp

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2016, 12:57:08 am »

Have you appointed at least one fortress native as a Scholar in the library you're working with? I've found foreign scholars don't start showing up unless the location they're visiting is staffed (probably because their main interaction with the fortress population is taking on apprentices).

My library didn't attract anyone until I appointed two mechanics as scholars. This seems to have affected what scholars I get - the visiting scholars are all engineers of some sort. In another fortress I appointed a skilled writer (with no "knowledge" skills) as Scholar and got all sorts of visitors, including geographers and naturalists.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2016, 03:08:54 am »

Appointing scholars is not mandatory to get visiting scholars, as I've had a small number in my fortress which has never had any library staff. That does not mean, however, that staffing the library has no effect on the attractiveness of the site. My main guess is that getting visitors is more based on what's available in the nearby world than on what attractions you actually have (beyond the existence of the site itself).
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2016, 12:27:54 pm »

Interesting! I do have two scholars, but they don't really have many other skills.

I wonder if I teach them about say, smithing, they will start to write smithing books and attract visitors.

I will implement this posthaste.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

cerevox

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2016, 07:38:06 pm »

I had a scholar/scribe in my library and only got the regular tavern entertainers until I put some stuff in my library. I don't recall exacty what, but it was some random codexs off a caravan. After that I started getting a scholar or two every season. That also coincided with rough time when I started selling 10k dorfbuck prepared meals, so it might be a stocked library or it might have been my export value exploding.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2016, 10:53:00 am »

Hmm. Well, I just struck some gold veins, and I'd hate to not be sure what helps get scholars. For the science.

I'll hold off on major exports until I train some actual labor skills into my scholars. Test that first.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Flarp

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2016, 09:51:22 pm »

Some ameteurish science:

I started up a new fort with vanilla raws with the intention of focusing on scholar visitors. I embarked with four knowledge-skill dwarves (an astronomer/geographer, a logician/mathematician, a chemist, and an engineer) and set up a large, smoothed, furnished library and refrained from establishing an inn or temple. The moment I appointed the scholars to the library I got a Historian visitor, and a steady stream of scholar visitors followed for the next year. Because my citizens were beginning to get distracted from boredom and impiety, I set up a very minimal tavern and ecumenical temple. The former immediately started attracting poets, bards, and dancers, to the point that within a few months the number of "tavern" visitors and "library" visitors was approximately equal, despite the fact that it had taken the high-quality library some time to accumulate that population. Once I added some rentable rooms to the tavern, mercenaries and performers requested residency much more frequently than visiting scholars - I approved scholars only. Judging by the quality of their writings, many of the visiting scholars were quite skilled ("overall, the prose is great") but most scholars that applied to stay were Adequate/Competent only in their disciplines - with the exception of several elven Great Geographers who seem to be from the human-conquered elf civ to the north (who are all >180 years old).

Findings:
  • I've seen the following job titles: Historian (unknown skill), Naturalist (Tracking), Geographer (Geography), Chemist (Chemistry), Mathematician (Mathematics, possibly Logic), Engineer (Optics, Siege, or Fluid Engineer, Mechanic), Doctor (medical skills, esp. Diagnoser), Astronomy (Astromer). Reading, Writing, Wordsmith, Student, Teacher, and Critical Thinking appear to be secondary, but related, skills, which are associated with the "Scholar" title.
  • Taverns accumulate visitors (and attract residents) much faster than libraries in general. Temples of No Particular Deity do not appear to generate visitors at all.
  • No furniture is required for a library to function - an empty room designated as ones still allows appointed and visiting scholars to Discuss research concepts.
  • Tables, chairs, containers, and scrolls/quires are required for original writing (which visitors seem to do more frequently than residents) and scribe-copying.
  • Bookcases do not appear to be strictly necessary to library function, but like cabinets, they reduce item clutter.
  • A library with no scholars will may not (thanks PatrikLundell) attract visitors, but it will store preexisting codicies and scrolls, where citizens will read them.
  • Possibly by merit of their long lifespans, desire to wander, and dreams of seeing the great natural places of the world, elves seem predisposed toward acquiring high Geography skill levels.
  • Similarly, dwarven visiting scholars are often some form of engineer (Optical, Fluid, or Mechanical), a discipline that does not appear is rare among humans or elves. Mathematics and Logic also seem to be primarily dwarven disciplines. Dwarves constitute a majority of scholarly visitors - whereas Performers and Mercenaries are a roughly equal mix of elves, dwarves, and humans.
  • Human scholars seem rarer in general, but this is likely affected by the randomly-generated ethics of nearby human civs in my world. They have good relations with my civ, but they keep elven slaves.

As an addendum, I'll add that this fort is the first non-worldgen gameplay in a 350-year-old world, so I can't answer the original question of this thread definitively. BUT: several years in, my fortress is attracting a lot of baron(esse)s consort, who generally have Novice-ish skill levels in knowledge skills. This only started occuring about 7 years into the library's existence, and they've been arriving about once a season since. I speculate that these learned consorts are arising organically through post-worldgen interactions, since they are historical figures and therefore more likely (I think) to obtain written works tracked by the game engine. Oddly, it's only baron-level consorts; no count or duke consorts, and no human nobles, even as non-library visitors.

It seems that the game doesn't create visitors from peasants - they tend to have an ordinairy career first, and then somehow decide to become scholars/mercenaries/performers (as is often chronicled in the codicies performers carry). At the fort level, this seems to occur because dwarves are constantly observing (and thus learning) performances in their social areas, and some will spontaneously read for fun without any knowledge skills - but I doubt distant sites are resolved well enough for this kind of thing to happen globally.

If I (or someone else) can find a codex describing the career change from a "job" profession to a "visitor" profession that was written after the world stoppped generating, that might provide us with some answers on whether visitors arise then.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 06:15:27 pm by Flarp »
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He views any show of emotion as offensive, sees introspection as important, values self-control, and strongly believes that a peaceful and ordered society without dissent would be best. He believes that mastery of a skill is one of the highest pursuits, values nature, and finds romance distasteful. He holds well-laid plans and shrewd deceptions in the highest regard.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2016, 03:47:04 am »

A modification to amateurish science: I've had visiting scholars to my undwarfed library, so personnel is not strictly required (but it might very well help to have some). I don't think the first scholar arrived before I had appropriate furniture in the library, plus some purchased written stuff. I think I hadn't yet made quires at that time, though.
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Flarp

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2016, 06:02:36 pm »

A modification to amateurish science: I've had visiting scholars to my undwarfed library, so personnel is not strictly required (but it might very well help to have some). I don't think the first scholar arrived before I had appropriate furniture in the library, plus some purchased written stuff. I think I hadn't yet made quires at that time, though.

I've updated my main post. Maybe the requirement for visitors is that something exists for them to do in the library - whether that's reading a scroll/codex/quite or chatting with a scholar. In the fort where my library stayed inactive until I appointed Scholars, I don't think I had purchased any written works from merchants. More science is required!
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He views any show of emotion as offensive, sees introspection as important, values self-control, and strongly believes that a peaceful and ordered society without dissent would be best. He believes that mastery of a skill is one of the highest pursuits, values nature, and finds romance distasteful. He holds well-laid plans and shrewd deceptions in the highest regard.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2016, 06:13:16 pm »

A modification to amateurish science: I've had visiting scholars to my undwarfed library, so personnel is not strictly required (but it might very well help to have some). I don't think the first scholar arrived before I had appropriate furniture in the library, plus some purchased written stuff. I think I hadn't yet made quires at that time, though.

I've updated my main post. Maybe the requirement for visitors is that something exists for them to do in the library - whether that's reading a scroll/codex/quite or chatting with a scholar. In the fort where my library stayed inactive until I appointed Scholars, I don't think I had purchased any written works from merchants. More science is required!

I can add that My fort does have 4 books written. They are either fiction about no particular subject, or reference a previous event in the fortress.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Flarp

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2016, 06:31:36 pm »

A modification to amateurish science: I've had visiting scholars to my undwarfed library, so personnel is not strictly required (but it might very well help to have some). I don't think the first scholar arrived before I had appropriate furniture in the library, plus some purchased written stuff. I think I hadn't yet made quires at that time, though.

I've updated my main post. Maybe the requirement for visitors is that something exists for them to do in the library - whether that's reading a scroll/codex/quite or chatting with a scholar. In the fort where my library stayed inactive until I appointed Scholars, I don't think I had purchased any written works from merchants. More science is required!

I can add that My fort does have 4 books written. They are either fiction about no particular subject, or reference a previous event in the fortress.

Hm. I definitely think the subject matter of those books has something to do with the age of your world. We know there's a hidden "tech tree" operating behind the scenes that allows dwarves to write on/discuss more advanced topics (my world still appears to be dominated by geocentrists). I would hazard a guess that this process is somehow sparked by worldgen events in each civ - tech developments can continue post-worldgen, but worldgen may provide certain foundational features of a civilization's scholarly traditions. Without technical subjects to write on, scholars may "default" to fiction, location guides, and biographies (and your world probably doesn't have enough histfigs for many biographies yet).

So, maybe the limiting factor isn't the lack of scholars in your world (although, there probably aren't many), but instead the fact that scientific knowledge is nonexistent in a young world.
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He views any show of emotion as offensive, sees introspection as important, values self-control, and strongly believes that a peaceful and ordered society without dissent would be best. He believes that mastery of a skill is one of the highest pursuits, values nature, and finds romance distasteful. He holds well-laid plans and shrewd deceptions in the highest regard.

kingsableye

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Re: Regarding off-site scholars and bards
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2016, 12:32:09 am »

Following Flarps logic, then if you focus some Dwarfs to research and study perhaps your civ's "tech level" will increase. Through this you might get more scholars.
This is purely conjecture, but there might be merit to it.
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