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[Romans]

We could use a fear Hex on Gregory and have the problem sort itself out. Two Our daughter is far to naive, I think we should give her one of our fathers Blessings. So she won't be so easily manipulated, don't know what it would be called however. 

[StrawBarrel]

Spoiler: My comments on the treaty: (click to show/hide)

1: All signatories shall deny the truth of any charges of sodomy leveled against the late Duke Sylvester Riverland of Redleaf, and shall acknowledge that all children born to Duchess Maeris Riverland before his death are the Duke's legitimate offspring.

This line seems just symbolic and rather unimportant. Only positive I see is that give us the option to legitimatize our son Toby. Overthinking, the only possible negative is Glen Horton could find it disagreeable that their relationship is denied on paper, but I doubt that would occur.

2: Joy Strongcurrent shall be named heir to her father Sylvester Riverland, and acknowledged as legitimate Duchess of Readleaf. Duchess Maeris Riverland shall rule as regent until Duchess Joy Strongcurrent turns twenty-two or is otherwise deemed fit to rule by her mother or a majority of the Counts named below.

Making Joy the Duchess is not a bad choice. This may get Port County onto our side easily. The biggest concern is that she is not currently fit to be a Duchess. This is remedy by the fact we will be regent. During that time we can help shape Joy into a ruler.

3: At such a time when Duchess Joy Strongcurrent rules the duchy without a regent, her husband Redding Strongcurrent shall be named Duke of Redleaf, and shall share in her authority.

If possible we should not have Redding become Duke. There aren't really any red flags about him other than he's ambitious, but limiting him is a good idea. If persuasion is needed, we can tell from personally experience it is still a powerful position as he will need to advise Joy and the Strongcurrent dynastic name will become the ruler of Redleaf via their children.

4: Should Duchess Maeris Riverland perish, relenquish the title of regent, or be otherwise deemed unfit to rule by the majority of the Counts named below before Duchess Joy Strongcurrent is fit to rule on her own as per Article 2, Redding Strongcurrent shall be named Duke, and Joy Strongcurrent will be endowed with the full legal authority of her office starting on her 22nd Birthday or upon being deemed fit to rule by her husband or a Majority of the Counts named below.

This looks fine.

5: For their treacherous support of Sylvester's Murderer, the present rulers of Silver County shall be stripped of their land and titles, and shall be subject to other punishment at the discretion of the legitimate duke, duchess, or regent. Upon the liberation of Silver County, Gregory Rothwell will rule over those lands in the Duchesses' name as count.

I actually agree with this. The Kinkaids have been threatening him and his family for sometime. Giving Gregory the county will give him equal footing to Kinkaids thus making it much more difficult for him to be controlled. I see making Gregory a count as a counterbalance to the Kinkaid's power.

6: For their treacherous support of Sylvester's Murderer, the present rulers of King's Road County shall be stripped of their land and titles, and shall be subject to other punishment at the discretion of the legitimate duke, duchess, or regent. Upon the liberation of King's Road County, it shall be added to and ruled as part of Silver County.

I don't think it would be wise to give Gregory King's Road County. I think we should try to have be decided by us or a simple majority vote by the Counts and Duchess. Gregory may prove not to be the best leader as he is corrupt so it would best to limit his jurisdiction to one county. I think we should leave this county open for now; possible candidates may include Gregory if he proves to be a competent count, a Marlowe if one proves not to be traitorous (I would think Sylvester made these people in charge for a reason), a Kinkaid if for some reason we need to appease them or they prove not to be too treacherous, and whoever may come up.

7: For their treacherous support of Sylvester's Murderer, the present rulers of Gulf County shall be stripped of their land and titles, and shall be subject to other punishment at the discretion of the legitimate duke, duchess, or regent. Upon the liberation of Silver County, Farquad Riverland will rule over those lands in the Duchesses' name as count.

Since viability of Farquad is questionable, we should leave Gulf County open like King's Road County.

8: Upon being made aware of this treaty, the present rulers of Port County will be given ninety days to renounce Sylvester's Murderer, and swear fealty to Duchess Joy Strongcurrent. Should they do so, Count Ernie Strongcurrent shall be considered named in this document. Should they refuse, they shall be stripped of their land and titles, and shall be subject to other punishment at the discretion of the legitimate duke, duchess, or regent. In this scenario, Port County will be ruled directly by the Duchess and shall be handed down to one of her legitimate offspring who has not and shall not be named heir to the Duchy.

Onlookers gawk as you do you best to keep your grip around the meddlesome Sir Rick's waist; The Knight, one of Count Horton's men assigned to escort you to Groghall, had been boasting to Redding Strongcurrent, your son-in-law, that he looked forward to executing his father, one of the Counts who swore loyalty to the prince, personally.

Although Ernie sounds dubious, getting Port County in a bloodless fashion would be preferable. With Joy becoming Duchess could swing him over to our side as his family will gain some power. Although making Redding a Duke and co-ruler would increase our chances, I don't think it is necessary.

9: For their loyalty to Duke Sylvester Riverland's memory and bloodline, the rulers of Southjungle and Roe River County shall keep their land. Count Phineas Kinkaid and Count Glen Horton are hereby named in this document.

This line reminds me about the Hortons. We should invite them to send a delegation here so they can be part of this. Considering them will hopefully give us a better relation with Glen so we can stop him from going on a rampage. It also gives us more time to consider this treaty and who should be Sylvester's heir.

11: Should Gregory Rothwell ascend to rule over Silver County as per Article 5 of this document, Duchess Maeris Riverland shall be named Mayor of North Bank City should she desire the role.

Pros: We get the city.
Cons: We have the responsibility of the city so we have less time to teach Joy and we are under the rule of the Kinkaids.
I think we should let it stand since we can always abdicate the mayorship.

12: Should Duchess Maeris Riverland decline the role of Mayor of North Bank City, or at such a time her reign as mayor comes to an end, Article 18 of the Second Treaty of Monument Palace, which bans the legitimate ruler of Roe River County from appointing the mayor of North Bank City, shall be nullified.

This is great.

Suggestions:
Say the we are unsure about making Redding Duke of Redleaf and ask him what reasoning is behind it.
Suggest the ruler of King's Road County should be decided at a later time through a simple majority; the electorate containing the Counts and Duchess of Redleaf. Democracy is something that pleases the signatories and most likely the power struggle between everyone will force them to elect a neutral party to rule King's Road County.
The countship of Gulf County should be decided by the regent or Duchess. I think this is an ok way of modifying article 7. This gives us the power to choose the Count, giving the Riverland family power, but gives the other Counts an incentive to agree as it does not necessarily mean a Riverland will take Gulf County.
State we must have the Hortons be a signatory to this treaty. This should improve relations and give us time to think more. Also the signatory may likely be our best friend Miri Horton as Count Glen is probably busy at war.
Encourage everyone to speak their concerns, suggestions, questions, and comments with regards to the treaty. I'm curious to see what Charlie has to say.
-

Actually, perhaps naming Fortune as the heir isn't such a bad idea after all. They're definitely not expecting it, at the very least. We should perhaps ask Fortune's opinion on this privately after making noises about perhaps not signing the treaty just yet, and confer privately with Joy and Dean on the idea as well. A forgotten god has designs on our daughter, who is to say they might not align with our collective interest? Risky, perhaps, but this is a risky game we play regardless.

+1

Oh, shit.

Let's politely take some time to think about this.

Try to talk in private with the Countess. Gregory is out of control. That degree of self-determination and greed is just unhealthy for a good underling. She may not want to keep him around as mayor.

My posture on Joy as Duchess is a no until she gives birth, at least. Everybody will agree on that, as it is for the good of her health and that of her offspring.

((I love the political intrigue of this game))

+1

[Tomcost]

Say the we are unsure about making Redding Duke of Redleaf and ask him what reasoning is behind it.

This is an awfully direct question that will get Redding upset. The idea is that Joy would be Duchess, not him.

Suggest the ruler of King's Road County should be decided at a later time through a simple majority; the electorate containing the Counts and Duchess of Redleaf. Democracy is something that pleases the signatories and most likely the power struggle between everyone will force them to elect a neutral party to rule King's Road County.
The countship of Gulf County should be decided by the regent or Duchess. I think this is an ok way of modifying article 7. This gives us the power to choose the Count, giving the Riverland family power, but gives the other Counts an incentive to agree as it does not necessarily mean a Riverland will take Gulf County.
State we must have the Hortons be a signatory to this treaty. This should improve relations and give us time to think more. Also the signatory may likely be our best friend Miri Horton as Count Glen is probably busy at war.
Encourage everyone to speak their concerns, suggestions, questions, and comments with regards to the treaty. I'm curious to see what Charlie has to say.

Everything about this should be done after the pause. We need to discuss things in private with the Countess first.


Also, it is wort mentioning that the Kinkaids hate the Hortons. Getting them involved will be detrimental to getting the Countess' favor, but maybe necessary to counteract the balance of power.


As a final note, I think I know how to dissuade Redding from treachery: our family owns his soul. He can't escape that. He should better side with us, or he will end up claning horse crap with his tongue as a zombie head attached to an arm.

[VoidSlayer]

My primary concern is that a majority of the counts undersigned can declare Redding regent which will bring him to full Duke status.

He should not be allowed the title Duke until Joy is fully invested at 22 or we say so.

In addition Joy is old enough to decide on her regent herself to some degree.  She should have veto power over removing us.  The counts should also be able to remove Redding as regent if they feel the need to.

We should cut down what the mayor gets but still let him get something.

Change the eldest son's county into one for the Bonedust family instead, to be ruled in his name until he wants it.

Also the other major concern is that those counties which will be confiscated will never join us with this treaty.  Better language would be to have the counties of those who continue to oppose us confiscated and then divided up among the loyal undersigned counts, without any specifics.  That way we maintain control over who gets what in the future while giving us leverage in the short term to force some other counts to flip.

Less loyal allies but less hostile enemies.

We can stall on signing it by saying we need to consult on it, this isn't something you sign in a day.

[IronyOwl]

Oh, shit.

Bear in mind that Gregory's family used to rule Silver County, so to him getting Silver County "back" must seem very reasonable. I also like the point that if he's ruling his own county, he's probably harder for the Kinkaids to control.

That said, adding a second county onto that one is just gratuitous, and he's a corrupt coward. He'd in all likelihood make a terrible count. We might be better served trying to get his brother in there, assuming he's still alive. Trouble there is that it looks bad if you declare somebody the Count and they don't want to be the Count, or will only accept if you pay them a blood price. We should get into contact with him over this, maybe butter him up by explaining that his people need him.

Alternatively, we could investigate his kids. If they're any better than he is, we could skip right over Gregor and right to his heirs; he wouldn't like that as much as ruling himself, but he probably wouldn't dislike it terribly much.


Not a fan of declaring counts traitors before they've had a chance to capitulate. If we want as bloodless and easy a war as possible, we're going to need to give people a way out. Declaring 2-3 families traitors, stripping them of their lands and titles, and holding them to "whatever punishment whoever is in charge wants" pretty much locks them into ironclad resistance.


On another note, I'm starting to question the idea of Duchess Joy. She's a little, ah... direct? And has a mean streak. Unless we're planning on having really, really warm relations with the orcs, Farquad might be a better choice after all.

Then again, we could try having really, really warm relations with the orcs.


I might be in favor of putting this off for now. There's a lot we don't know or aren't sure of, and Joy is right that this is about to become a screaming match between her mother, husband, and mentor.

Maybe we should say that we'd like to consult with our other still-loyal vassals before making a decision? It's even true!

[Romans]

My primary concern is that a majority of the counts undersigned can declare Redding regent which will bring him to full Duke status.

He should not be allowed the title Duke until Joy is fully invested at 22 or we say so.

In addition Joy is old enough to decide on her regent herself to some degree.  She should have veto power over removing us.  The counts should also be able to remove Redding as regent if they feel the need to.

We should cut down what the mayor gets but still let him get something.

Change the eldest son's county into one for the Bonedust family instead, to be ruled in his name until he wants it.

Also the other major concern is that those counties which will be confiscated will never join us with this treaty.  Better language would be to have the counties of those who continue to oppose us confiscated and then divided up among the loyal undersigned counts, without any specifics.  That way we maintain control over who gets what in the future while giving us leverage in the short term to force some other counts to flip.

Less loyal allies but less hostile enemies.

We can stall on signing it by saying we need to consult on it, this isn't something you sign in a day.

+1 Also again our father gives us two blessings unconditionally, we should give one to Joy so she has better mind for these things. Or something along those lines, as it stand she is far to naive and can be manipulated.

Also we should talk to fortune and see what she has seen before we decide   

[Tomcost]

+1 to stalling

I didn't take into account Gregory and the Silver County. That is convenient. Giving him the other county is not. Also, we may want to put Gregory's brother instead in charge, as someone suggested. But we could juts orchestrate Gregory's death and be done with it.

[IronyOwl]

Gregory's probably one of the least dangerous power-hungry assholes we're going to have to deal with, though. And as I mentioned earlier, a conveniently weak link between us and Countess Charlie.

[Tomcost]

And what do we do about Redding later? Do we intimidate him into being loyal to our family? After all, he is a Bonedust now, as his soul belongs to the family.




Question to GM: is there a way to escape the whole thing of the soul going to Tiv after death?

[High tyrol]

+1 to stalling

I didn't take into account Gregory and the Silver County. That is convenient. Giving him the other county is not. Also, we may want to put Gregory's brother instead in charge, as someone suggested. But we could juts orchestrate Gregory's death and be done with it.

1+

[IronyOwl]

And what do we do about Redding later? Do we intimidate him into being loyal to our family? After all, he is a Bonedust now, as his soul belongs to the family.

I have no idea. I like the idea of intimidating him with soul threats, but he might not even be aware of that yet, he might be able to wriggle out of it (such as by divorcing Joy, which would no doubt make her real happy with us), he might worry about the future later or figure once he's Duke Of Everything he can barter/strongarm his way out of it, or he might rely on his relationship with Joy to shelter him from anything severe.

Honestly, I think the only real solution is to confirm or mold him into a good, reliable leader. He's in too good with Joy to just get rid of him, but his whole thing is that he wants power. We can squish him down, either with threats or political maneuvering, but that'd mean he'd wriggle against us and bitch about it to Joy; he's not going to be happy being our underling in the long term. That leaves giving him what he wants (well, some of what he wants) at least eventually, but we don't know if we can trust him with it, either in terms of competence or loyalty.

So that pretty much leaves working with him. We don't have any indication that he's an especially poor choice for Duke/right hand man/Joy's husband/person who wields power, so we just have to pay attention to and mold him a bit.


That said, I'm still a little worried about Joy becoming Duchess, but at this point we've got way too much pressure to back out of it, I think. Joy wants it, Redding and Charlie really want it, it'd help our image, and we know we can do it.

[StrawBarrel]

Given everyone bringing up a lot of great ideas, it looks like we'll have to revamp the treaty and of course not sign it today.

Say the we are unsure about making Redding Duke of Redleaf and ask him what reasoning is behind it.

This is an awfully direct question that will get Redding upset. The idea is that Joy would be Duchess, not him.

I didn't think of that, good point. It's obvious that he wants power, but it might embarrass Redding to question him in front of everyone. That's best saved for a private conversion. I'm interested how he handles himself in explaining. Is he diplomatic? If not, then going off of IronyOwl's point we should try to mold him as well as Joy.
As for private conversation with Charlie, we should be prepared to think of an answer for her Riverland Crossing takeover.

[Romans]

What if we inform him that it'd be in his best interest to stick with the program if he wants enjoy all of eternity with the rest of the family. (we say it a little bit more subtle though)

[IronyOwl]

I don't see what subtlety does for anything. Either he gets it and we have the expected complications, or he doesn't get it and there's no effect.

[VoidSlayer]

I don't think we should threaten him about the soul stuff... yet.

He already knows we are wicked creepy with curses and such, better he not know the specifics until we need to actually threaten him.

We do have two free boons, we should be handing those out soon.  Maybe even bless the unborn baby with some inborn knowledge or magic?  They will be the future duke (or united king of the glorious human-goblin empire).