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[Kogan Onulsodel]

If it's like other living things, it also has fat and blood and such. The approximation that living things have about the density of water is pretty good (unless they're birds, in which case they have adaptations to reduce density): humans are generally right around the density of water, as you can tell when you go swimming (if you don't do anything, you'll either float with just a bit of you above water or sink very slowly, so you're very near neutral buoyancy). A lot of reptiles are around neutral buoyancy as well (especially things like crocodiles... it makes it so much easier to live in and around water when you're neutrally buoyant, then you don't have to expend a lot of energy just staying where you are). Also, being "super-awesome" doesn't necessarily mean heavier and denser... being heavy is often a disadvantage. I don't know exactly what magic is in cave dragons (so maybe they are super dense, I don't know), but he's making a pretty good approximation, no reason to accuse him of thinking of it like a snowman wrapped in tissue paper (though actually, snow is even much less dense than water, between ice having a lower density and the fact that it's not packed ice).

[Abadayos]

I just want to point out one reason humans are buoyant is both because we are 70%ish water by weight and also we have many air pockets in out chest and abdomen which assists with buoyancy.

Either way this is frigging amazing and making me want to start up a fortress again. My main issue is I let the population creep up to a point where I just don't care about each dwarf and they simply become a number in the grand plan, which ends due to FPS death. I may start up another one soon and limit it to a hard cap of 40-50 and see what happens on a 4x4 or 5x5 embark and see what I can pull off, nothing like this though...this is frigging amazing!

[kingsableye]

I'd like to weigh in on the weight/density debate for the cave dragons. I apologize to OP and readers for the derail.

Reading the raws, we see that all creatures use the same files for body plans and organic components. Which means the bone/flesh properties of a dwarf is identical to that of a cave dragon (minus the scales, of course).

Most misc. flesh components are 1000kg/m^3 (density of water) or with 6-10% of that. All organs are half as dense as that water, this also includes bones and scales. So in DF cave dragons are probably closer to 2/3 the density of water, rather than 5/3 the density of water.
But so are most organic creatures, demons and other hard coded friends excluded of course.

The material_template_default is what I'm looking at.

[Trotskisaurus]

I really hope this isn't a boring question, i'm loving this thread, but how does your artificial river/waterwheels work? It looks like a beast.

[Sethatos]

I really hope this isn't a boring question, i'm loving this thread, but how does your artificial river/waterwheels work? It looks like a beast.

Not a boring question at all. I basically just dug out a 3 tile wide tunnel a few z levels below and to the left of an underground lake on the 3rd cavern level. As well as a 6 tile wide tunnel directly above it and channeled the middle 3 tile wide section down into the lower section. Then I had my engravers smooth both passages and carved fortifications at the end of the lower tunnel to let the water drain off the side of the map. I built the gear assemblies first so that I could hang the waterwheels off of them. I had to construct a one tile floor temporarily to build the middle water wheels after the ones next to the gear assemblies were built. Once all of the machines were built, I had them dig ramps up to the edge of the lake and broke through to the water from above. The water wheels can't be destroyed even if a troll say gets into the river because it's on a z level above. The result: 93 water wheels producing 9300 power

The only thing I'm worried about is that it's made of wood, and with the fort running so long, some of the wood beds and things are starting to disintegrate from wear. But I only have to worry about the water wheels if I can run the fort for another 250 years or so.

As for the cave dragons, beyond what their density is, they take a beating and keep going which gives the military time to shoot or slash the enemy. The fire immunity is frankly the best part though because they charge through fire and smoke unaffected.

 Also, small update:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

We just captured a Roc

[xominxac]

PTW

[RocheLimit]

We just captured a Roc

Awesome!  Here's hoping it is A) viable and B) not the last one left on the planet, as breeding rocs is fun and very profitable (mmm, x15 multiplier...)!  Some advice, though, on megabeasts in 42.24.

Even after you train them, the mere sight of them will interrupt dwarves doing other duties and, because of vengeance, cause the dwarves nearby to bum rush the megabeast.  This usually leads to many dead dwarves and a hilarious combat log.  I have seen a dwarf catch sight of a day old roc hatchling from 20 tiles away, become interrupted, and lynch the poor thing.  I have also seen a dwarf pulled away from a Dragon-butchering job just short of the butcher shop, release the dragon to instantly interrupt multiple dwarves, and a rather warm bonfire results.  Be sure to keep any megabeast you have trained in special training rooms far from the beaten path, with many switch-backs and pet-denying doors and hatches in between.

Sadly, this interaction means even if you tame the young of your roc they will have limited uses; if you were to let them fly around the fortress unhindered, it would be a blood bath.  Trained/Tame megabeasts still make good guard animals via chains (dwarves ignore them if chained), excellent choices for a Megabeast-Bomb (and you thought 200 kittens were bad!), or simply food animals with a massive return for 20 years of investment (hello 20 million cubic cm farm animal!). 

[Fleeting Frames]

First, that's a really impressive fortress Sethatos, if I were to underestimate on the scale of calling an ocean a pond.

With normal player, I guess the reaction would be to make some roc egg roasts waiting for another roc, and eventually baby roc leather for artifact moods, soap and cloaks/quivers.

With you, weaponization seems like but a small step rather than a crown jewel project of a mature, carefully-sculpted fortress.

I have also seen a dwarf pulled away from a Dragon-butchering job just short of the butcher shop

Because of the dragon it was dragging to it, or some other reason?

With the additional leather/bones consideration, I wonder if it would be possible to have reasonably safe if complicated mechanism where you release untamed (so they an fly) birds of prey onto attackers, and then when they're dead open a hatch so they can fly back into their cages.

Though, come to think of it the only flying beasts who would be able to shoot back against ranged enemies instead of being simply shot out of the sky would be clowns and FBs, right?

Those can't be baited with food, though.

[RocheLimit]

Because of the dragon it was dragging to it, or some other reason?

Mainly for farming.  Everyone in my fortress harvests.  Just bad luck that the Urist attempting to butcher the dragon got called away by the siren call of ripe plump helmets.

Workers actively working with trained Megabeasts won't be interrupted by them, nor will they be when idling after a job, at least that I have seen.  Just had the thought, though, that it could be that active military dwarves are the ones starting all the trouble by spreading vengeance to nearby civilians, who interrupt their jobs to join the fight.  Much to their detriment.

[Mraedis]

This is awesome. 

[bughunter]

Yes.

[Roofless]

Am I the only one who pictures HFS colonization plan followed by HSF terraforming plan?
Step One - release rocs into the HFS.
Step Two - rocs prey on clowns, eat them and fetilize HFS floor for the future cave moss, mushrooms and trees.
Step Three - ? ? ?
Step Four - PROFIT !!!

[Eddren]

Well, while the Cave Dragon debate is great and all, I was more or less referencing to the fact that Dragons usually have most of their size focused into length, rather than height or width, meaning it might actually have a tail-length easily capable of flattening ten, fifteen--Hell, maybe even 20--Goblins in one go. I mean, I won't get into the concept of the ever-shifting dimensions of Dwarf-Fortress used so that all creatures occupy one tile, but...Seriously. That thing is like one massive mace.

[Fleeting Frames]

It's probably the one place where non-tame Roc's flying ability is amusingly large disadvantage :p
*Roc falls 1z to slade floor and explodes into gore*

If you cover up the pits, give muddy floor for cavern plants and don't kill the FBs who visit it, it will be just like other 3 caverns (expect emptier, I guess) :p

Getting surface trees to grow there might be rather more difficult. It is savage jungle, so I suppose that perhaps Highwood might grow in savage hell, and I suppose you could floor the hell with clay and then mine slade to get some soil walls, but making those outside/light/above ground seems like bit of a complication.

Maybe someone with more experience in digging slade can clarify on the viability of the idea?

[TheFlame52]

You'll need to mod the game to grow trees in hell, but in Bastiongate I was able to grow cave moss and convert the slade floor to sand.