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[snow dwarf]

Ok, I will now explain everything all my actions. So  everything that made me suspicious was because I'm a noob. I was voting on other guys just because I saw some guys vote and I took some ridiculous reasoning as to vote on those guys and suspect.

Alright man, whether you're Town or Mafia, take these into account:

This might be true, but everything you've done just feels lacking. Like, imagine if I had written this: Would it be acceptable? I don't believe so. I don't want to hold you to a lesser standard, man. Everything that made you suspicious very well could've been because you're a noob, but you are also continuing to make noob decisions. Step up to the plate and swing. You might not hit a home run, but you might get a double with a nice post.

I want you to imagine something: You're a LYLO. It's you and two other people, one of whom is Mafia. Someone votes for you. What proof have you given to the other person that they shouldn't lynch you now? To me, I would say none. YOU look like the Mafia player. I don't see solid arguments for your votes. I don't see active scumhunting. If you can't provide these when you're not in dire danger of losing, then it's entirely likely that you won't give them when it DOES matter.

You are right that I see noob mistakes. I've literally been trying to help you the entire time, but you're not taking my advice. Here's what I want you to do:

First, read a few of the arguments against you.
Second, and probably most importantly, understand those arguments. There are more than 2 people voting for you, so that means there are absolutely Town voting for you. That means that Town players think you are Mafia. If this takes you 10 minutes, an hour, whatever you need, look at where they are coming from.
Third, come up with some counterpoints. Honestly, you really ARE a noob, but that won't work to get you out of this hole. Why should we vote someone over you? How is your target more likely to be Mafia than you? Why are the people voting for you wrong? We want reasons to not vote you! This is the first Day. The Town won't know anything more than you will.
So, lastly, give us some solid reasons to not vote for you.

You've got to see everything else from other people's perspectives. There is a 100% chance that Town is suspicious of you. So, why is that? And how can you fix it?

Well... I don't really know how to start.
Let's just start from something stupid like... will you plant a rose on my grave when I die and if I'm not a scum?
Ok I really don't know how to get out of this hole.

To anybody who sees my not want to post my scum list scummy. I really don't understand why would you vote on me just because of the fact that I didn't post my list. The reason behind me not posting it is just because I didn't have the list down on paper cause everything in my mind was changing so fast and I thought that I won't write it down until I get some better suspicions. Than you ask me for the list and I'm to lazy-busy to find all the arguments so I just thought that it isn't really scummy in not posting a list of people and I said that I won't post it.

To anybody who finds the fact that I didn't say why I voted on doomchild scummy. I do understand voting on me  cause I probably would have voted the same. The first day I think is the hardest. There are votes on wrong people all over the place. I vote on a guy that I see other people voting on just to make him nervous of dying and say something, and it sounds scummy but how does it differ from other votes. You want somebody lynched or to say something suspicious or to say something that makes him seem like town all of them are suspicious and scummy when you say them this way. So why vote on me if there are other people but with a reason written and the reason might still be something stupid.

@Webadict could you tell me what was your reasoning behind your vote on me?

[snow dwarf]

Going to sleep good night (or should I say good day of judgement if your post worked )

[hector13]

Alright, day ends tomorrow, fair enough...

webadict

If my votes are based on intuition, I would consider the vote to be unreasoned. Doesn't mean I won't follow it up. I didn't get to be King of the Mafia by being completely logical. That feeling can be the difference between right and wrong. The logical answer is not always the right one, and the right answer is not always logical.

So, yes, I initially voted him for illogical reasons, but all that means is my vote is poorly supported. Feelings don't matter to anyone but the one who holds them. And honestly, while I don't like his answer, nothing immediately jumped out at me. So he can have another shot. Some people might jump on his overreaction and tunnel that, but honestly, that's too easy. That's lazy. Mafia can do that if the Town let's them.

So I won't let ANYONE do it. It's why I don't like Abstract's answer. It's too easy.

I'm going to disagree with you here. Gut feelings don't just pop out of the ether, something has to trigger them. I wanted to know what it was but it's probably a bit late now, given the raft of posts snow dwarf has made since then. I'd still like to know what initially triggered it though.

Feelings may only mean something to the person that has them, but that's what questions are for.

If you're town it allows us to piece together your thought process on what you think is suspicious about someone. If you're scum, it forces you to actually work to get your mislynch.

Also:

Okay so far I've been reading for a little bit ((reason I haven't been posting)) and I think I've formed some opinions I  leaning on Hector being town currently because he hasent rubbed me the wrong way yet and as such I don't hold much suspicion towards him.I'd say that snow dwarf could be town but I'm leaning that he's scum as he seems evasive? I guess that's how you'd put it so Snow dwarf why are you being so evasive when people asked for your list you supposedly only gave part of it I want to know everyone on it.

Go find your own target. Your suspicions are bad and poorly reasoned. Anyone could vote anyone with that. WHY HIM OVER ANYONE ELSE?

Bit cheeky asking someone this question shortly after you said you were voting snow dwarf for - and I quote - "looking reasonably suspicious".

What are your thoughts on players-not-named-snow-dwarf in this game?

[responding to ATH] Trying to look town is a scumtell, though.

[responding to snow dwarf] Yo dawg, I'ma level witcha. You sound really super duper scummy. You are lacking on your reasoning and dropping the impact of your attacks. Get some hard-hitting proof, son. How are they trying to look Town? That's not enough to just say it. You need to point out where it is vs. where it should be. Honestly, trying to look town isn't that great of proof, either.

Bit of a mixed message here. Which is it? A scumtell or nonsense?

Your interaction with ATH (starting here and ending there - between posts 192 and 215, basically) reads rather strangely.

I mean ATH is offering up more or less the same reasoning as snow dwarf for voting someone, but goes further in that he offers some evidence. One piece of evidence, to a bunch of RVS questions (there was one real question "who do you think is scum/town?" in that list) that snow dwarf didn't answer.

How come snow dwarf draws your ire and ATH gets a free pass?

As a side note, I'm not sure about your IC'ing here. While I appreciate the two official IC's have been ultra-quiet for whatever reason (seems to be happening a lot lately in BM games, could be why  there isn't much uptake in newer players...) you technically aren't an IC in this game, though the advice you're giving is useful to them.

It's hard for me not to take into account you giving advice to the newer players for my read because it isn't progressing the game, but BM games aren't really about winning so... maybe have an IC voice or something, so we at least know you're not trying to mislead us with your advice? Different font, text colour etc.


Gentlefish

...These three things combined make me think you're indulging in confirmation bias (if town) or are just trying to manufacture evidence against him (if scum), neither of which are particularly great.

- You are right; it was not a strong argument when I look back over it; I forget to assume ignorance over malevolence and I read scum where I should be reading newbie. I have since backed off on DoomChild.

Did you do this? What was your conclusion? What posts made you think that?

- In regards to looking over EP's posts, I am afraid I have not yet. The thing about posting a lot makes it difficult to sift through. Thank you for reminding me that I have to do this.

So... another "why are you voting for x over y" question: why snow dwarf over EP?

I mean, this is the second time EP has been in a list of things you've apparently found scummy, but you vote for someone else?

You're right. I have my FoS on EP but snow dwarf quickly voted doomchild with little fanfare or reasoning, and has so far been dodging the questions regarding it. I can see at the very least that EP responds to accusations.

That's all well and good, I like being right but... this does nothing to alleviate my suspicions. These seem like "correct" answers, and they always bother me in mafia.

I'm not sure assuming anything in a game of mafia, even a BM, is a good idea. Does being new preclude someone from being scum?

Any effort at all into reading over EP's posts? 'cause if you say you're gonna do something, it's generally a good idea to do it. It just looks to me like you want to avoid commenting on EP's play so far. Not wanting to comment on another player doesn't come from a town viewpoint, in my opinion.

Did you know the voice of Admiral Ackbar died yesterday, speaking of traps? I'm not voting for you because you're less suspicious than snow dwarf, but it's a town's duty to follow up on all suspicious activity, right? That is hard to do D1, because there's nothing to really grab a hold of, other attacking other people's attacks. I never like lynching D1, but it's necessary for the town, in order to glean some information from the posts. I was simply asking you which posts of his feel off, to you. Maybe not in so many words nor so clearly, but I would like to see which posts of his put you off. Is that too much to ask a townie?

Emphasis mine. I generally don't mind it when people say they're town when they're asked to provide a list of town reads (I actually loathe it, but I've seen people from n00bs to vets do it, so it's a null tell) but it's notable when they volunteer the information on their own.

Would it be fair for me to assume you read webadict as town?


doomchild

I'm unvoting Gentlefish for now, because I also need to remember to consider cock-ups before conspiracy.

I'm not ready to vote snow dwarf yet, but I definitely have some pretty strong suspicion about him.

Just so you're aware, this reticence to jump on a bandwagon isn't a good thing in my book. It also makes your previous vote on Gentlefish look like a massive OMGUS. Were you only voting for him because he was voting for you?


Once again, questions for EP and Vector here. Question for Vector is probably past its sell by date, but what the hell, answer it anyway.

[webadict]

There you go, snow. That's a quality post. Not because it's long, but because it's trying to strike at the heart of the matter.

If you turn out to be Town, that will suck, but I will not be upset. I will have made a decision that I thought was best for Town at the time. You should always feel this way when voting. We cannot be 100% sure, but we can be close.

The best part of your answer is that you're revealing a lot about your style. A lot of your play is projected into your actions. You are nervous to be voted, and your voting and rationale indicate that. You say you are voting other to pressure them, and when voted yourself, you seem pressured. There is no lying in your words there. But that does not mean you're Town.

Honestly, I started voting based on a few posts you made. It just seemed off. Nothing more than that. And your answers are disconcerting to say the least. Why are you so pressured by these few votes? If that's the case, I am under the impression it would be best to lynch you now. You can accuse me of defending my actions after the fact, but all I really had to go on initially was a gut reaction. Lack of reasoning wasn't much of an issue to me. Just the extraordinary amount of nervousness to be voted at all. And the way you turned on me when voting you was a bit of an overreaction.

I do apologize for this if you're Town, as more practice would serve you well, but I can't justify unvoting you. You are extremely nervous and emotional at the moment, and those are not good indications for being Town.

IC:
I hope you have learn from what I told you, though. I promise this isn't a lie as an IC. Regardless of if you are Mafia or Town, you should absolutely follow what I've been telling you. Mafia wants to look Town, too! Mafia just has a bit of extra knowledge on who is actually Town.
End IC.


@hector:

Ture. I just don't want an easy excuse for someone to look and say, yeah, I see it too. I don't think it helps as much, especially since I'm mostly playing by phone. So, half of it is laziness. I know, I know... It's fair to blame me for it.

As for the scumtell, I do not believe in it much. I'm saying it's a scumtell because it is. If you're trying to look Town, then it follows you're not. I'm saying that by itself, it is not good enough to prove someone scum. It's a weak scumtell if that. I have also added some more information in this post about snow dwarf. It probably won't cover everything you want, but it makes a good case for a D1 lynch.

On other players, not as sure. I feel Abstract is Town. I have little to read about Vector and Persus, which I would like to do, but they are quite quiet. You are tougher to read, but that is good. It's mostly good to be skeptical of you, since you're more active, which means if you're Town, you might be killed at night. I want to think you're Town, but I'm only like 10% sure on that. Maybe 15%. I don't think Gentlefish is scum, though. That's just a feeling though. As for the rest, I don't know.

Also, I suppose that's a good idea on the IC voice. I'm trying to keep my IC stuff somewhat separate from the game stuff, but I can see the confusion it still might cause. I'll try to... I dunno, label it by itself. That seems fair. Some of it will drift into my posting, but purely IC stuff will now be labeled. Hope that helps!

[Gentlefish]

(pfp) can we  prod persus13 please? I haven't seen hide nor hair of him since friday. It's wednesday.

[snow dwarf]

I know I'm probably the biggest suspect.... but if I'm mafia (I'm not saying that I am) and I am nervous so why don't keep me for later and I guess you could try to get out of me who is the second scum (not like I know who he is) and you can always lynch me later.

[Persus13]

Snow child

I know I'm probably the biggest suspect.... but if I'm mafia (I'm not saying that I am) and I am nervous so why don't keep me for later and I guess you could try to get out of me who is the second scum (not like I know who he is) and you can always lynch me later.

I was thinking you were merely flailing and new before this, but this sounds like an admission of guilt. I can't see how town you would say this.

[snow dwarf]

Ok... I want a rose on my grave if I'm town

[Persus13]

Ok... I want a rose on my grave if I'm town

Please don't give up. Show me your thought process for why you wrote that last post. Does your list of scummy people remain unchanged? If your town, you should go down fighting. There's still time left for you to survive if you keep going.

[snow dwarf]

If this makes me look like mafia then why would I post it if I don't want to look like mafia?

[snow dwarf]

My list has nobody on it.

[Persus13]

Have to grab dinner, so here's what I had of my Wall of Text responding to stuff asked to me, and asking questions of my own.

I've noticed that some of you aren't using quotes a lot. If you're playing from your phone, that's understandable, but otherwise, please try to include a quote of what you're responding. Its really helpful when people like me are trying to look back in thread to find something scummy. If you can't quote for whatever reason, try using the post number instead.

Doomchild:

fillipk, why haven't you posted yet?  You're plotting with your scumbuddy, aren't you?

How serious was this question?

Yeah, you're right.  I am going after lurkers.  I suppose a lot of that would be that it seems (after reading previous games) that lurkers tend to do way more harm than good to town, and since I want to win, we need to get them to talk, right?

Voting lurkers doesn't usually work towards getting them active as they usually have non-game reasons for not posting. Voting active lurkers on the other hand can.

What I meant was that'd I be rereading everything and forming new opinions and as such plan what I'd post.

New opinions?  Are you sure you don't mean that you needed to converse with your scumpal and come up with some dastardly scheme to bring down the rest of us townies?

What's wrong with rereading the thread and forming new opinions?

Elephant Parade:

Persus13: You are the IC. You have not made a single post. Did you forget you were in the game, or what? I'm not going to throw in a pressure vote because I'm pretty sure you don't know you're in the game, but this is ridiculous.

Sorry, I've tended to lurk more and more over the last two years, and this is one of my first mafia games in ages.

Gentlefish:

No, I really am Gentlefish. I will admit to a name change, albeit from Pufferfish. I simply wished to change my name to something more fitting of my personality. Do you think being town all the time is too good to be true?

So you're pufferfish? What do you think the most important thing you have learned from previous mafia games is?

(pfp) can we  prod persus13 please? I haven't seen hide nor hair of him since friday. It's wednesday.

I've posted several times over the past two days and was prodded over the weekend. I was working on a post yesterday, but that got derailed by a Math test I had today. This indicates you haven't been paying attention. Next time I suggest you use the lurkertracker to check claims about activity before you post about them

snow dwarf:

Hmmm, it's either that elephant parade and Vector are playing us and they are both mafia, or one of them is mafia.

I don't think you ever explained why you said this. Can you?

If this makes me look like mafia then why would I post it if I don't want to look like mafia?

What? i have no idea what you are even trying to say here.

Vector:

I'm here, just been busy with stuff.

Persus13, can you tell me something about how the Bay12 playstyle has changed lately? Are you familiar with any of the other players?

Oh--and by the way, is lurking still a really big scumtell for you these days?

No, because I haven't played recently. I'm pretty sure I played a game with EP, and I know I've played a game with hector13, but I can't remember anything specific either. I do remember Gentlefish being cop in my first ever scum game, and managing to convince everyone that me and Tiruin couldn't possibly both be scum when both of us were.
I've used lurking to hide as scum once in a Supernatural game. I've lurked a lot in my games more recently, especially D1 because knowing how to play D1 isn't the greatest.
Any tidbits on webadict as a player you can share? Have you felt that keeping your vote on me is the best use of it?

ATH:

Everyone:
Who do you think is scum and why?
Who do you believe would be the most dangerous as scum?
Who do you think is least likely to be scum in other words who do you think is town?
Do you think we should Lynch someone day 1 or wait for someone to die and gather evidence from what happened over the night?
Who has the coolest username here?

Doomchild is probably highest on my list of suspicions (This was written before snow child posted the post for which I voted him for). I've found some of his questions and scumhunting strategies questionable so far in a scummy way
EP has the highest post count, so according to the notquitethere theory he's probably town, and I have yet to see anything to contradict that possibility.
Lynching D1 is always the best way to find scum in a BM.
The other questions are RVS questions.

[snow dwarf]

QUOTE:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Have to grab dinner, so here's what I had of my Wall of Text responding to stuff asked to me, and asking questions of my own.

I've noticed that some of you aren't using quotes a lot. If you're playing from your phone, that's understandable, but otherwise, please try to include a quote of what you're responding. Its really helpful when people like me are trying to look back in thread to find something scummy. If you can't quote for whatever reason, try using the post number instead.

Doomchild:

fillipk, why haven't you posted yet?  You're plotting with your scumbuddy, aren't you?

How serious was this question?

Yeah, you're right.  I am going after lurkers.  I suppose a lot of that would be that it seems (after reading previous games) that lurkers tend to do way more harm than good to town, and since I want to win, we need to get them to talk, right?

Voting lurkers doesn't usually work towards getting them active as they usually have non-game reasons for not posting. Voting active lurkers on the other hand can.

What I meant was that'd I be rereading everything and forming new opinions and as such plan what I'd post.

New opinions?  Are you sure you don't mean that you needed to converse with your scumpal and come up with some dastardly scheme to bring down the rest of us townies?

What's wrong with rereading the thread and forming new opinions?

Elephant Parade:

Persus13: You are the IC. You have not made a single post. Did you forget you were in the game, or what? I'm not going to throw in a pressure vote because I'm pretty sure you don't know you're in the game, but this is ridiculous.

Sorry, I've tended to lurk more and more over the last two years, and this is one of my first mafia games in ages.

Gentlefish:

No, I really am Gentlefish. I will admit to a name change, albeit from Pufferfish. I simply wished to change my name to something more fitting of my personality. Do you think being town all the time is too good to be true?

So you're pufferfish? What do you think the most important thing you have learned from previous mafia games is?

(pfp) can we  prod persus13 please? I haven't seen hide nor hair of him since friday. It's wednesday.

I've posted several times over the past two days and was prodded over the weekend. I was working on a post yesterday, but that got derailed by a Math test I had today. This indicates you haven't been paying attention. Next time I suggest you use the lurkertracker to check claims about activity before you post about them

snow dwarf:

Hmmm, it's either that elephant parade and Vector are playing us and they are both mafia, or one of them is mafia.

I don't think you ever explained why you said this. Can you?

If this makes me look like mafia then why would I post it if I don't want to look like mafia?

What? i have no idea what you are even trying to say here.

Vector:

I'm here, just been busy with stuff.

Persus13, can you tell me something about how the Bay12 playstyle has changed lately? Are you familiar with any of the other players?

Oh--and by the way, is lurking still a really big scumtell for you these days?

No, because I haven't played recently. I'm pretty sure I played a game with EP, and I know I've played a game with hector13, but I can't remember anything specific either. I do remember Gentlefish being cop in my first ever scum game, and managing to convince everyone that me and Tiruin couldn't possibly both be scum when both of us were.
I've used lurking to hide as scum once in a Supernatural game. I've lurked a lot in my games more recently, especially D1 because knowing how to play D1 isn't the greatest.
Any tidbits on webadict as a player you can share? Have you felt that keeping your vote on me is the best use of it?

ATH:

Everyone:
Who do you think is scum and why?
Who do you believe would be the most dangerous as scum?
Who do you think is least likely to be scum in other words who do you think is town?
Do you think we should Lynch someone day 1 or wait for someone to die and gather evidence from what happened over the night?
Who has the coolest username here?

Doomchild is probably highest on my list of suspicions (This was written before snow child posted the post for which I voted him for). I've found some of his questions and scumhunting strategies questionable so far in a scummy way
EP has the highest post count, so according to the notquitethere theory he's probably town, and I have yet to see anything to contradict that possibility.
Lynching D1 is always the best way to find scum in a BM.
The other questions are RVS questions.

There was no real reason behind saying that Vector might be scum but I had an explanation for EP. And what I meant is that I wouldn't post my message if I would be mafia cause I know it would make me look more mafia.

[hector13]

But you might be mafia knowing that, so post it with the expectation that everyone think that you're town.

Or maybe you're town that anticipated that and made the argument knowing that we think mafia would never do that.

That's known as Wine In Front Of Me, WIFOM or wine for short, so it's not an argument that'll convince us you're town.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

Yeah from what I've read wifom is ussaly preety useless and almost never helps people find scum.