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[TheSteppeWolf]

How will a classless society in the modern age destroy the concept of nation and culture

Don't communists want a world revolution which means erasing all borders, either instantly or eventually?

Is this a bad thing?

Yes because my nation is important to me and I would fight to the death to defend it, unless it has betrayed democracy.

why would that be a bad thing?

Because culture is the most important thing an ethnicity has.

Ethnicity is just one of many things used to separate human beings from one another.

Broadly speaking, we’re all the same when you boil it down; we all have the same needs and wants and desires, why complicate things by saying we have differences because of where your ancestors were from or what they did?

So you're saying culture doesn't matter, or that it matters less than some insane "utopia"?

[ChairmanPoo]

How will a classless society in the modern age destroy the concept of nation and culture

Don't communists want a world revolution which means erasing all borders, either instantly or eventually?

Is this a bad thing?

why would that be a bad thing?

Because culture is the most important thing an ethnicity has.

Ethnicity is just one of many things used to separate human beings from one another.

Broadly speaking, we’re all the same when you boil it down; we all have the same needs and wants and desires, why complicate things by saying we have differences because of where your ancestors were from or what they did?

I have to question this bit about communism being the biggest threat to culture. Most cultural imperialist moves have happened under the auspices of the market. Look at what happened with Aboriginal Australians, or European colonialism in Africa and the Americas.  Or, for that matter, "Russification", which predates the Soviet Union and has gone on after it ended.

Edit: I somehow get the feeling Hector's the type of Scot who voted to remain latched onto England's teat...   

I think he isn´t? I´d swear he votes SNP.

[ZBridges]

Oh, what I meant was more that modern democracy was the problem, not that we should go full Ancap or something. Not that I know enough about anarchocapitalism (or whatever it's called) to really discuss it. Is that what Rand was about? Not about to google it, I don't feel like putting my back out from cringing too hard.       
Capitalism goes great when paired with saner forms of government, at least historically. Maybe it's just the information age that has made a mess of things. *shrug*   


Edit: I somehow get the feeling Hector's the type of Scot who voted to remain latched onto England's teat...   

What would be a saner form of government than democracy?

[TheSteppeWolf]

How will a classless society in the modern age destroy the concept of nation and culture

Don't communists want a world revolution which means erasing all borders, either instantly or eventually?

Is this a bad thing?

why would that be a bad thing?

Because culture is the most important thing an ethnicity has.

Ethnicity is just one of many things used to separate human beings from one another.

Broadly speaking, we’re all the same when you boil it down; we all have the same needs and wants and desires, why complicate things by saying we have differences because of where your ancestors were from or what they did?

I have to question this bit about communism being the biggest threat to culture. Most cultural imperialist moves have happened under the auspices of the market. Look at what happened with Aboriginal Australians, or European colonialism in Africa and the Americas.  Or, for that matter, "Russification", which predates the Soviet Union and has gone on after it ended.

Well, at least in Mongolia the capitalists, unlike the communists, actually don't try to destroy our culture. It's the same in modern Russia too from what I have heard from actual Russians (their government still sucks because Putin, but, at least, it's not the USSR).

[ChairmanPoo]

Well, at least in Mongolia the capitalists, unlike the communists, actually don't try to destroy our culture. It's the same in modern Russia too from what I have heard (their government still sucks because Putin, but, at least, it's not the USSR).

Have you thought that maybe your perception is biased because of non-generalizable things about your local area? If you were, say, Middle Eastern, Biafran or Filipino your perception about whom is responsible for suppressing your culture might be a bit different.

[TheSteppeWolf]

Well, at least in Mongolia the capitalists, unlike the communists, actually don't try to destroy our culture. It's the same in modern Russia too from what I have heard (their government still sucks because Putin, but, at least, it's not the USSR).

Have you thought that maybe your perception is biased because of non-generalizable things about your local area? If you were, say, Biafran or Filipino your perception about whom is responsible for suppressing your culture might be a bit different.

Our current government doesn't suppress religion and didn't try to ban surnames. You heard that right. Isn't that objective? I'm not biased.

[Rolan7]

I can't speak to what Capitalists and Communist partisans are doing in Mongolia, but I think it's clear that Capitalists, through imperialism, tend to erase inconvenient cultures at every opportunity in world history.  That's basically the story of the last two centuries.

Heck, Stalin did that too.  We're meeting you at Stalin being a baddie.

Putin is also a horrendous blight upon humanity, a vicious despot who tortures and murders "culture" that he personally disagrees with, but baby steps I guess

[TheSteppeWolf]

I can't speak to what Capitalists and Communist partisans are doing in Mongolia, but I think it's clear that Capitalists, through imperialism, tend to erase inconvenient cultures at every opportunity in world history.  That's basically the story of the last two centuries.

Heck, Stalin did that too.  We're meeting you at Stalin being a baddie.

Putin is also a horrendous blight upon humanity, a vicious despot who tortures and murders "culture" that he personally disagrees with, but baby steps I guess

I don't disagree that capitalists also destroy cultures, but they destroy less on average. All communist countries tried to suppress culture, and any future ones will do same. Also libertarian communism will always turn authoritarian because humans are greedy. Not having a state results in warlords taking de facto power over government.

[ChairmanPoo]

I don't disagree that capitalists also destroy cultures, but they destroy less on average

Again, this is UTTERLY provincian of you. You´re focused on what happened to Mongolian culture, and missing the fact that there´s a whole world of cultures and ethnic groups that have been screwed over by capitalist nations. For every culture or ethnic group in the Eastern Block that has grievances similar to yours, you´ll find folks elsewhere that will remark how it was the other side that screwed them over, and how it was the local socialist militia (at times backed by the Eastern block) defending their nationhood.  Cultural imperialism is not a capitalist/socialist thing. It´s a consequence of a power gradient and social dynamics

[TheSteppeWolf]

I don't disagree that capitalists also destroy cultures, but they destroy less on average

Again, this is UTTERLY provincian of you. You´re focused on what happened to Mongolian culture, and missing the fact that there´s a whole world of cultures and ethnic groups that have been screwed over by capitalist nations. For every culture or ethnic group in the Eastern Block that has grievances similar to yours, you´ll find folks elsewhere that will remark how it was the other side that screwed them over, and how it was the local socialist militia (at times backed by the Eastern block) defending their nationhood.  Cultural imperialism is not a capitalist/socialist thing. It´s a consequence of a power gradient and social dynamics

I... I guess I understand. Thank you. The problem is that even "home grown" communists can do the same damage while capitalist damage to culture is usually from, as you said, imperialism, which I also oppose.

Also, communism is different from socialism.

[ChairmanPoo]

I don't disagree that capitalists also destroy cultures, but they destroy less on average

Again, this is UTTERLY provincian of you. You´re focused on what happened to Mongolian culture, and missing the fact that there´s a whole world of cultures and ethnic groups that have been screwed over by capitalist nations. For every culture or ethnic group in the Eastern Block that has grievances similar to yours, you´ll find folks elsewhere that will remark how it was the other side that screwed them over, and how it was the local socialist militia (at times backed by the Eastern block) defending their nationhood.  Cultural imperialism is not a capitalist/socialist thing. It´s a consequence of a power gradient and social dynamics

I... I guess I understand. Thank you. The problem is that even "home grown" communists can do the same damage while capitalist damage to culture is usually from, as you said, imperialism, which I also oppose.

Also, communism is different from socialism.

For the record, and by the way: My people´s language and culture were banned for decades. To the extreme that they tried to change my homeland´s name and landmarks.  Having certain surnames also made you suspicious; I´ve gotten a bit of that at times even though I was born after the dictator was dead. My parents were certainly concerned when I was a teen, in case I had trouble at the capital because of my surname or my accent, or both. I only have a smattering of my people´s tongue, because, even though it was my great-grandfather´s vernacular, he decided he´d not teach it to his children to avoid political repression.

This all happened in a Western European nation.

Like I said, culture suppression has very little to do with communism or capitalism, whichever the definition. It has a lot to do with hegemonic cultural groups deciding they don´t accept the existence of other smaller cultural groups.

[hector13]

Oh, what I meant was more that modern democracy was the problem, not that we should go full Ancap or something. Not that I know enough about anarchocapitalism (or whatever it's called) to really discuss it. Is that what Rand was about? Not about to google it, I don't feel like putting my back out from cringing too hard.       
Capitalism goes great when paired with saner forms of government, at least historically. Maybe it's just the information age that has made a mess of things. *shrug*   


Edit: I somehow get the feeling Hector's the type of Scot who voted to remain latched onto England's teat...   

Voted SNP at every opporchancity mate :p

How will a classless society in the modern age destroy the concept of nation and culture

Don't communists want a world revolution which means erasing all borders, either instantly or eventually?

Is this a bad thing?

Yes because my nation is important to me and I would fight to the death to defend it, unless it has betrayed democracy.

What would a betrayal of democracy be to you? Democracy is government by the people. Are the people of your nation different enough from another nation that their decisions are better than the other?

why would that be a bad thing?

Because culture is the most important thing an ethnicity has.

Ethnicity is just one of many things used to separate human beings from one another.

Broadly speaking, we’re all the same when you boil it down; we all have the same needs and wants and desires, why complicate things by saying we have differences because of where your ancestors were from or what they did?

So you're saying culture doesn't matter, or that it matters less than some insane "utopia"?

Far from it, culture is history, and should be celebrated, so long as it doesn’t suggest it’s better than another culture.

It’s a difficult thing for me to explain what I mean, especially when I’m tired.

[TheSteppeWolf]

I don't disagree that capitalists also destroy cultures, but they destroy less on average

Again, this is UTTERLY provincian of you. You´re focused on what happened to Mongolian culture, and missing the fact that there´s a whole world of cultures and ethnic groups that have been screwed over by capitalist nations. For every culture or ethnic group in the Eastern Block that has grievances similar to yours, you´ll find folks elsewhere that will remark how it was the other side that screwed them over, and how it was the local socialist militia (at times backed by the Eastern block) defending their nationhood.  Cultural imperialism is not a capitalist/socialist thing. It´s a consequence of a power gradient and social dynamics

I... I guess I understand. Thank you. The problem is that even "home grown" communists can do the same damage while capitalist damage to culture is usually from, as you said, imperialism, which I also oppose.

Also, communism is different from socialism.

For the record, and by the way: My people´s language and culture were banned for decades. To the extreme that they tried to change my homeland´s name and landmarks.  Having certain surnames also made you suspicious; I´ve gotten a bit of that at times even though I was born after the dictator was dead. My parents were certainly concerned when I was a teen, in case I had trouble at the capital because of my surname or my accent, or both. I only have a smattering of my people´s tongue, because, even though it was my great-grandfather´s vernacular, he decided he´d not teach it to his children to avoid political repression.

This all happened in a Western European nation.

Like I said, culture suppression has very little to do with communism or capitalism, whichever the definition. It has a lot to do with hegemonic cultural groups deciding they don´t accept the existence of other smaller cultural groups.

Thank you... I understand more now. I still hate communism though. Also here we suppressed our own culture. The same thing happened in China and Russia.

How will a classless society in the modern age destroy the concept of nation and culture

Don't communists want a world revolution which means erasing all borders, either instantly or eventually?

Is this a bad thing?

Yes because my nation is important to me and I would fight to the death to defend it, unless it has betrayed democracy.

What would a betrayal of democracy be to you? Democracy is government by the people.

Turning into a dictatorship or an anarchy. The latter will turn into the former within a few years anyways.

Are the people of your nation different enough from another nation that their decisions are better than the other?

No. We're not superior to other nations, where did I say that? It doesn't mean we should not preserve our culture or defend our nation against aggression.

[kaijyuu]

Yeah, wolf seems to have some wacky conflations of ideas.

A nation-state is not a culture. It is a bureaucracy. If the bureaucracy vanished, the people wouldn't. Eliminating things like borders and tribalism do not eliminate people or culture.

Also remember that utopian ideas are still useful as goals to shoot for, even if when taken to the logical conclusion are impractical or impossible. Everyone would love elimination of social classes (aside from maybe elitists who like to oppress people), even if doing so is rather hard. Minimizing power differences is more plausible and reasonable.

[TheSteppeWolf]

The bureaucracy is needed to protect the people from both outside countries and each other, and provide them benefits. It should be relatively small government, sure, but, it's needed.