Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[MorleyDev]

It's not about "will it happen where regulations become incompatible", it's about having the process and treaties and agreements to handle it if it does or prevent it. No country in their right mind is going to sign-up to anything like an open goods border without legally signed and triple checked agreements on that sort of thing.

I work at an office that does most of it's business with UK and Europe, and is part of a cross-Europe 'group' within the larger global business. The last place I worked at did most of it's business with UK and Europe, and hired multiple native speakers from the EU to perform translations to various european languages. The place before that did most of it's business with UK and Europe, and hired multiple native speakers from the EU to perform translations to various European languages and provide international customer support. I'm a software developer, and I can tell you from the inside that there's a definite pattern in how the Technology Sector of the UK economy is currently structured.

If it was all of our businesses it'd be complete economic suicide, but as it is it's calculated at resulting in reduced GDP growth over the next decade. You need the damage mitigation in order to allow for the transition to happen whilst minimising that reduced GDP growth.

I really don't see how it disadvantages the UK if the ROI is given a privileged position over the 26 other European nations, sounds like a great laff honestly. It is a pity that we don't have a PM willing to pursue this option

Because there's no way such a deal would get through EU parliament without being Veto'd by any of the 27 European States? And a deal has to be agreed by both sides to...be a deal?

[Loud Whispers]

Except again, I work at a business that does most of it's business with UK and Europe. The last place I worked at did most of it's business with UK and Europe. The place before that did most of it's business with UK and Europe. And I work in ICT. Seeing a pattern in how the Technology Sector of the UK economy is currently structured?

I see anecdotal references to your personal experiences with businesses, but mine differs, which is about what you'd expect from a Londoner lol. Singapore, Japan, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Qatar, USA, Canada, there is a world out there beyond Europe's shores

If it was all of our businesses it'd be complete economic suicide, but as it is it's calculated at resulting in reduced GDP growth over the next decade. You need the damage mitigation in order to allow for the transition to happen whilst minimising that reduced GDP growth.

You are suggesting?

Because there's no way such a deal would get through EU parliament without being Veto'd by any of the 27 European States? And a deal has to be agreed by both sides to...be a deal?

A deal yes, but no deal does not :D

[MorleyDev]

You are suggesting?

That any withdrawal agreement is going to need a significant element of damage control. It's all well and good to talk about 'potential', but again I'm saying it is disingenuous to pretend that the investment for this 'potential' doesn't come at a high cost in initial investment and ignore that this investment cost and time taken to implement is going to result in slowed growth and reduced profits whilst carried out. Which is what the louder pro-Leave voices (Mogg and co) in parliament seem to be doing.

I see anecdotal references to your personal experiences with businesses, but mine differs, which is about what you'd expect from a Londoner lol.

Wait, are you the Londoner? Because I'm definitely up here in the East Midlands.

[Loud Whispers]

That any withdrawal agreement is going to need a significant element of damage control.

A transitional period would be useful; a quagmire of indefinite extensions less so

Wait, are you the Londoner? Because I'm definitely up here in the East Midlands.

yeah blad yeeeeeee

France en fuego btw

And someone taped razor blades to a children's slide

[Teneb]

France en fuego btw

Macron has lost the Mandate of Heaven. The Yellow Vest Rebellion will show the true way to the Hon.

[ChairmanPoo]

Macron had 24% of the votes to begin with. He was never a monolithic leader. He won the second round largely because the other candidate was a fascist, not because he was very popular himself. He might win aggain for the same reason

[Loud Whispers]

France en fuego btw

Macron has lost the Mandate of Heaven. The Yellow Vest Rebellion will show the true way to the Hon.

Who is the Yuan Shao in all of this

[MorleyDev]

There is always a need to compete, putting up protectionist barriers doesn't remove the need, it just delays the day of reckoning whilst forcing consumers to put up with monopolistic shitehocs like the Royal Mail, who treat their workers like shit and their customers like shit.

Sorry, some more thoughts:

It's not just competing with other businesses, it's that other businesses have had time to become entrenched in other regions. Most of ours that are already entrenched in the EU and UK with corporate brand recognition, for them if they have to pull out of that entrenchment then there are risks they won't be able to even break into the other markets because of that entrenchment. So if they can't keep their current levels of Europe-focused business and growth post-Brexit, that's a problem for them.

There's also the issue that for middleman businesses (aka services), European businesses can work on different payment models compared to other parts of the world. For example, where I get work we get paid on commission in Europe but rest of the world often operates on upfront payments for the service with less commission. So businesses where that applies may have adjust their business models, with all the overhead of setting that new technical infrastructure up, financial infrastructure, and building the different skill sets. Again, if they need to reduce involvement in the EU this is going to cause issues that could damage our current businesses.

Also if you're a part of a large global organisation, they often already have their America and China branches. Sometimes even a Middle East branch. For those businesses, the offices they set up are valued for regional skill-set and proximity to customers. So if you have a UK office that can only reach places the UK and then a bunch in much different time zones and speaking different languages, but no longer has the same reach into our immediate neighbouring countries, you're going to have a UK office just for the UK, a Europe office for the EU in the EU (probably in Berlin), and an American office for USA/Canada, and a China office for China. Which is the risk of reduced 'foreign investment' slowing growth.

So when you put someone in charge of Leaving that isn't a fanatic who wants to Leave no matter the costs, suddenly the self-preservation instinct that the political party in charge is going to take the bulk of the blame from the people who work for those businesses now will kick in. So they have to find a leaving agreement that doesn't result in that harm. And if they're a fanatic, they put their fingers in their ears the whole time and the damage gets done because that's what fanatics do. And the rest of their party suddenly have their self-preservation instincts kick in and work to not allow that to happen.

Hence, the current inevitable clusterfuck.

[ChairmanPoo]

A bit of a nonsequitur with the above, but I have some food for thought: I think people in the UK tend to underestimate how important FoM is for  qualified professional recruitment, particularily if you aim to recruit from European countries.  FoM (+ mutual academic recognition, but noone is arguing in favor of abolishing that) means that you can go abroad with relatively little risk and paperwork, so it kind of makes you more willing to try.  Abolish FoM and you're making things harder for would be migrants, therefore making your own recruitment efforts harder.

Speaking for myself I probably wouldn't have embarked in my current adventure without FoM.  Moving abroad is complicated enough WITH FoM, let alone without. It took me three months to make up my mind and another three to sort out the paperwork.  And I was unusually lucky in how smooth my start was

[smjjames]

You'd have to tell the politicians that though. Then the Leave politicians would probably just respond with a variation on the Trumpian 'Well, we'll just TRAIN our own specialists!'.

[ChairmanPoo]

You'd have to tell the politicians that though. Then the Leave politicians would probably just respond with a variation on the Trumpian 'Well, we'll just TRAIN our own specialists!'.

They did say that. And the British GMC replied that A: what are they going to do to fund said training and B: assuming you find the money and people for A, what are you going tk do in the decade-plus until they come out of training?
Which are not bad points to make TBH. There's going to be a lack of practitioners Europe-wide overall.

Anyways,I don't think that overall healthcare institutions  in the UK are deluded in this regard. All I've seen suggests that they are well aware that they are going to have a serious problem, and they do have some plans  in place to try to make things a bit less unstable for their EU staff... but it probably wont be enough by itself.

[Cathar]

When you recruit for a high-end position, whatever the position is, you are looking in a very small pool of specialists, and what you want is the best of the specific field. So when you recruit from a pool of, let's say, 500 people fit for a specific position, you will always end up better than if you're fishing in a pool of five, by sheer statistics.

As for training specialists, you...actually need specialists to do that, which brings us back to point A. The more specialists you have the more specialists you can train. Isolationism is a pure catastrophy for science with no upside

Macron has lost the Mandate of Heaven. The Yellow Vest Rebellion will show the true way to the Hon.

The yellow turbans forgot how it ended for them the last time they tried to pull that shit, and this time they don't have a wizard who can make blood sacrifice to summon Heaven's armies.

First time in my life I stand with the cops in a social issue. I feel for the poor schmucks who were dragged into this movement, but I'd really like the fascists out of my streets asap.

[scriver]

Macron has lost the Mandate of Heaven. The Yellow Vest Rebellion will show the true way to the Hon.

The yellow turbans forgot how it ended for them the last time they tried to pull that shit, and this time they don't have a wizard who can make blood sacrifice to summon Heaven's armies.

First time in my life I stand with the cops in a social issue. Hope the cops will make them realize the value of their healthcare.

Bourgeois will out

[Cathar]

The gilets jaunes are neither progressive, nor poor people. They are a fascistic mob, led by far right movements capitalizing on people's anxiety. Besides, until we stop being america's bitch and bring back negociations with Iran, we'll have a high gas price and yelling at our leadership won't do shit.

Yeah it sucks to pay a premium on gas, but I'm not going to war because Jule Dupont doesn't want to pay its share in the collective effort

[Teneb]

The gilets jaunes are neither progressive, nor poor people. They are a fascistic mob, led by far right movements capitalizing on people's anxiety. Besides, until we stop being america's bitch and bring back negociations with Iran, we'll have a high gas price and yelling at our leadership won't do shit.

Yeah it sucks to pay a premium on gas, but I'm not going to war because Jule Dupont doesn't want to pay its share in the collective effort

From what I understand, they are composed from both far-right and far-left group, united against the government but with differring end goals.