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[TD1]

Heh. The Dutch aren't ready for a Brexit. At least, their customs aren't.
It is calculated that we need to hire 1000 new people to work at the customs office / border checkpoints.
Currently there are 4600 people working there, so that's a 20% increase.
Training new customs officers takes 9 months, but the government is now considering offering a shortened variant of the training course to have enough customs officers ready when the Brexit pulls through.
The UK is the third largest trading partner of the Netherlands, so Brexit is going to hurt us.

Imagine what it was like when you needed English wool to make your famous cloth but then that bastard Philip II embargoes them for pirating in the New World.

[Loud Whispers]

Also, we're apparently unable to have any serious discussion about immigration, with the anti-camp unable to do anything but snarky comments without proper grammar, and the pro-camp unable to do anything but simmer in rage.

We've tried this before. I'd make proper arguments, all sourced and proper grammar, and all I'd receive in return was snark about how I was dumb, paranoid and probably white. It was personally disheartening for me to have people flat out deny that ISIS fighters were returning home, even when I showed evidence that this was their strategy and that fighters had already been caught on the Balkan border, it took the attacks to begin before anyone in that thread even conceded I was right. I've gotten more useful responses out of shitposts than I have with walls of text, which most of the time actually have the opposite effect on discussion.
I've also found that giving someone this big argument full of sources doesn't help them make a counter-argument, if they're insincere they'll just ignore it and argue against what it "seems" like instead of what it is, and if they're sincere the length of the argument is likely to just beat them into submission, killing debate outright either way. And in this case? How the bloody hell is it supposed to work that any of us are to keep making a counter-argument against an argument that was never made? In the absence of any arguments made I can only argue against what politicians have said are the reasons for this migration, not what any forumites believe - making it a monologue, not a dialogue. It leads to this assumed position that migration is inherently good, and the role for the pro-camp is not to actually make a case for it, but to just attack anyone who criticizes it as all manner of blasphemous things.

And you can't exactly complain that discussion is impossible if you expected to start a reasonable discussion on the basis that anyone who opposes unlimited migration hates immigrants and hates Muslims? No one's going to walk on poisoned ground, and certainly not if you've got more poison on standby. Whenever anyone's ready to make a reasonable case for whatever sense they believe lies in the European mindset to mass migration, there's not anything stopping them from posting and starting this discussion. Otherwise what would you rather me do? Explain my personal background, perspective, reasons for opposing an argument the other side never made, and then having my only response be called Donald Trump? It's wasting daylight hours in an experiment of frustration and futility. So dood, food lmao

[TD1]

imgration is bud i no. i herd it on sozxial media.

((Yea, I didn't see Sheb's wee post there. Methinks the writer snarks too much.))

[Sheb]

Yeah, I kinda miss those days sometimes LW. But in this case for exemple, it's more the fact that no debate is done from the get-go that annoy me. We've had martnuzz post one of his classical Volksrant link post. And it could lead to nice discussion about how Europeans countries ought to deal with the problesm pertaining to their Turkish minorities and Turkey's relation to it. There are plenty of issues there, from Kurdish-Turkish tensions, to issues with the genocide, to Turkey using the Diyanet (the Turkish religious ministry) to spy on Turks and ethnic Turks in Europe.

But we don't get any coherent thing, instead, we got the typical snarky referrence to "multicultularism" (frankly at this point I'd love to see the term banned. I've never seen a discussion that was made clearer by its use) followed by a bunch of other semi-joke snarks. All just short enough of factual that you can't really argue with them, because they're "only joking".

Of course, I can't ask everyone to sink hours in making wikipedia articles masquerading as bay12 posts, but I would love to at least have proper statements one can argue with in good faith rather than half baked memes meant to show your in-group you belong.

P.S I'm not sure where you got "anyone who opposes unlimited migration hates immigrants and hates Muslims" from my post, but for the record, I don't think that's the case.

Edit:

Vaguely related: Turkey offer 214.000 euros for anyone as reward for anyone who could provide information to "dispose of" Bahar Kimyongur, a Belgian activist of Turkish-Syrian parents. Bahar, a journalist has been arrested several time in Belgium, the Netherlands and Spain after Turkey sent out an interpol notce for him, but in all cases was not extradited after the various judges declared the charges as groundless.

[Loud Whispers]

Well for starters it'd probably be a poor life choice to see Germans in Europe as a homogeneous entity loyal to Erdogan, not least to say it'd be cruel, and Europe isn't just failing Turkish Germans it's failing all of the people it's invited. Not sure if there exists any political will to deal with anything in any way, just look at the Kurdish and Turkish clashes in Germany. There's what, 400k Germans who voted to give Erdogan more power? Find out how Germany failed all of those Germans. Or just cozy up to Erdogan some more and attack Hungary for having borders? European strategy has odd priorities. And as if there's anything EU people could do to stop Turkish agents, when they can't stop Russian agents, when they fund for the return of IS fighters, when it seems their priority is knocking on the doors of twitter troglodytes and not on criminals on their streets. Is a pro-Erdogan state going to allocate resources against its agents if it even had the capabilities? Not likely imo.

P.S. The statement on the forum going round an anti-immigrant, anti-muslim bend

[SaberToothTiger]

Polish internauts are outraged by video authored by the Ruderman Family Foundation saying that the USA should end relations with Poland over Polish involvement in the Holocaust.

And that is all I can write without snark. See the video for yourself, I laughed my ass off. Don't know which is funnier, the underinformed and deceitful video or the salty bois venting their rage in the comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chzwlm79a-Y

[Sheb]

Polish internauts are outraged by video authored by the Ruderman Family Foundation saying that the USA should end relations with Poland over Polish involvement in the Holocaust.

It's not about Polish involvment in the Holocaust, it's about the recent law that makes it illegal to "attribute the crime of Nazi germany to the Polish nation".

Personnaly I'm not sure which is funnier, but I definitely found the comment cringier ("This kind of shit is what caused the first Holocaust!") but then they're YouTube comments.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

i cant believe the EU has neo-nazi poland in it

merkel ban when

[SaberToothTiger]

Polish internauts are outraged by video authored by the Ruderman Family Foundation saying that the USA should end relations with Poland over Polish involvement in the Holocaust.

It's not about Polish involvment in the Holocaust, it's about the recent law that makes it illegal to "attribute the crime of Nazi germany to the Polish nation".

Personnaly I'm not sure which is funnier, but I definitely found the comment cringier ("This kind of shit is what caused the first Holocaust!") but then they're YouTube comments.

You're entirely correct. I guess I shouldn't write a comment whilst looking for my sides.

[martinuzz]

Poland is becoming more and more of an embarrasment for the EU.

[SaberToothTiger]

Okay, now that I've got the text of the law on hand it is clear to see that it is not unreasonable - it is stated that it isn't illegal to attribute to Poland or the Polish people crimes committed by the Third Reich IF what you claim is factual/is part of an academic pursuit/is part of an artistic pursuit/isn't a pulbic statement.

[Antioch]

Poland is becoming more and more like Turkey.

[martinuzz]

Morocco withdrew it's ambassador from the Netherlands, after a Dutch court ruled that the Dutch-Moroccan Said C. should not be extradited to Morocco, because of the risk of an unfair trial and torture.

Said C. is standing trial in the Netherlands for drug trafficking, but is also wanted by the Moroccan government for drug trade and bribery.
Said C. is also a former member of Moroccan parliament, and one of the founders of the 18 september movement, which strives for independence of the Rif provinces.
Said C. has always claimed the cases against him are political, and after investigation, the Dutch judge concluded that that is likely true, and statements made by witnesses against him were forced by torture.

So now we have no embassies or formal diplomatic contact with both Morocco and Turkey, the two countries from which our two largest migrant populatiopns originate.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The year is 2031. The distant future. The Netherlands is now the only country in the world with no diplomatic relations, following the closing of the Canadian embassy when a Dutch court ruled that maple syrup supplies were maintained through torture of minority tree species.

The streets are free of cars, now illegal, freeing the grand bike fleets to travel without limit. Pedestrians are run down on a daily basis, narrow tire marks becoming a fashionable clothes pattern. If you watch carefully, you may see them jumping between buildings, but they're just on they're way to drink exactly one liter of Grolsch during lunch break before returning to their jobs as Surgeon-Baristas. But suddenly! A man with a blade attacks one of the peaceful travelers! The bleeding sot is immediately seized by Medicines Evaluation Board PeaceDrones and taken to the walking hospital mecha for treatment and prosecution for inciting violence against themselves. The first is approached by police officers, fully contained in their powered armored suits and wielding combination heavy railgun/miniaturized non-nuclear launchers. They question him briefly, and confiscate the blade, but do not arrest him as assault was decriminalized as a form of spiritual self-harm by Dutch courts in 2024. They all part ways, neon shirts rippling in the wind.

The man later sues for the confiscation of the blade and emotional trauma from having to look at police. He is awarded twenty million euros in damages and the police officers are exiled to the German Quarantine Zone for their violent and inhumane mindset.

The Dutch judge leans back in his seat, repeatedly lighting and dragging on marijuana cigarettes as his court officer confiscates them and throws them into the canal. It was a good day.

[Strife26]

Okay, now that I've got the text of the law on hand it is clear to see that it is not unreasonable - it is stated that it isn't illegal to attribute to Poland or the Polish people crimes committed by the Third Reich IF what you claim is factual/is part of an academic pursuit/is part of an artistic pursuit/isn't a pulbic statement.

It's not illegal as long as the judiciary (now being rebuilt by the populist government) doesn't decide to hammer you for it. Definitely not the kind of security I'd trust.

Friggin Polish martyrdom complex doesn't mesh well with reality, unfortunately.