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[Neonivek]

No we wouldn't, because you buckle the moment someone asks you to back anything up with facts.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

SQUASH!

But personally I'd hope you would know SOME UK history so I wouldn't need to get third party sites so you know things like the Boer War occurred or that India exists.

indeed radical preachers and propaganda producers are a greater concern.

SOURCE NEEDED

A choice rescinded?

Just like the Jews in the UK! That was the exact logic behind it! Parallels just keep coming one after the other.

[martinuzz]

indeed radical preachers and propaganda producers are a greater concern.

SOURCE NEEDED

Basically every official report made by Belgian, Dutch, UK and pobably the other west EU intelligence agencies for the last 10 years. Or to nuance it, intelligence services do see lone wolves as a concern as well, mostly because they're harder to notice. But their main concern is hate imams, and both online as well as face to face propaganda.

[scriver]

Perhaps you guys in Europe are doing multiculturalism wrong, you should do it the way we do it in the US.

Of course though, it probably helps to be a country of immigrants.

By slaughtering the native populace and then rearranging society into one based entirely on race instead of nationality? No thanks, the US in general is a pretty good example of how not to do things.

That's not what I meant....

But it is true. The US society is one that has completely replaced actual nationalities with racial pseudo-nationalities. If you're white enough you get to fit in and be American. If you're too brown you don't belong. The "white nation" then pats itself on the back and congratulates each other on what a nice "melting pot" they have going where anyone can fit in and while they choose to ignore that it just so happens that only white enough ethnicities are part of the pot and that they haven't even been able to "melt together" with the afro-American population that's been living there for just as long or longer as any euro-American.

So no, we get enough American racist nonsense through you exporting your "white nation" supremacist bullshit to our nationalist supremacist nuts. I really would not like the whole race-based way of viewing the world to follow.

Those are things you believe in. Those are expressions of your culture. They are not universal values of every culture ever. This is exactly the kind of thing I was getting at by saying you don't actually understand what different cultures mean and only think it is superficial things.

You mean different cultures mean people have different cultures?

Yet I don't quite think you understand. What happens to a society that doesn't allow those rights?

No, I quite do not understand you right now because you are not making any sense or presenting a coherent point. Make the argument, don't beg it.

Preedit:

A choice rescinded? The entire world is not entitled to live in Europe regardless of whether Europeans having not invited, allowed them in or even having rejected or previously deported them. If we are to tell all EU citizens that their countries belong to whoever wishes without their consultation or permission needed, how would they take it? I daresay, we see their reaction now - it is an ugly thing

Hector was clearly referring to people already living in Europe by that statement, LW, whether by birth or acceptance.

[Neonivek]

indeed radical preachers and propaganda producers are a greater concern.

SOURCE NEEDED

Basically every official report made by Belgian, Dutch, UK and pobably the other west EU intelligence agencies for the last 10 years

That Muslim Preachers are freely radicalizing all the youth?

[Loud Whispers]

SQUASH! Need more?
But personally I'd hope you would know SOME UK history so I wouldn't need to get third party sites... But lets play your game.

No, these are all known to me and I could show you more. Honestly this is already a vast improvement over your normal concept of discourse so I would hope you continue to play.

SOURCE NEEDED

A lone wolf suicide attacker is a self-limiting issue, once they have launched their suicide attack they are unlikely to launch another one, because they will either be dead or in prison. A preacher or cleric who is encouraging people into becoming suicide attackers is not a self-limiting issue, and will continue to recruit attackers until persuaded otherwise. Thus the latter is the greater issue in my opinion, they are the source of the former and one which is highly motivated to continue motivating others. Alternatively, you can read the source I did provide, detailing how a radical preacher motivated lone wolves to launch terrorist attacks. Your enthusiasm is somewhat let down by your distaste of effort :/

Just like the Jews in the UK! That was the exact logic behind it! Parallels just keep coming one after the other.

What are you referencing? What argument are you making? What parallels are occurring? Please for sake of clarity use compound sentences describing these most important details

*edit

Hector was clearly referring to people already living in Europe by that statement, LW, whether by birth or acceptance.

No, they were referring to those who wished to move to Europe - look at the whole "not getting to move to Europe is a punishment" thing and the response, "if it is not a punishment, what is it?"

[martinuzz]

That Muslim Preachers are freely radicalizing all the youth?

You keep overgeneralizing things that are being said. No, no Muslim preachers in general, just those that preach intolerance and hatred. Most notably, Saudi funded wahabist preachers. Belgium deported a handful last year iirc, and the Netherlands tried to stop one that was banished from Belgium from entering the country but failed legally.

Silly, that, really. We can has stop Turkish minister from speaking in our country, but we cannot has stop hate-imam.

[Neonivek]

Mostly stuff in this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England

That Muslim Preachers are freely radicalizing all the youth?

You keep overgeneralizing things that are being said. No, no Muslim preachers in general, just those that preach intolerance and hatred. Most notably, Saudi funded wahabist preachers. Belgium deported a handful last year iirc, and the Netherlands tried to stop one that was banished from Belgium from entering the country but failed legally.

Silly, that, really. We can has stop Turkish minister from speaking in our country, but we cannot has stop hate-imam.

If I am overgeneralizing then I am 100 times more specific then what has been said. "Vague Muslim enemies" is kind of propagandist.

[smjjames]

@Scriver: We have our problems, yes, I'm not denying that, but explain how muslims in the US are far more integrated in society than in European society. There has to be something we're doing right that you're doing wrong. THAT is what I'm freaking trying to say!

[Neonivek]

@Scriver: We have our problems, yes, I'm not denying that, but explain how muslims in the US are far more integrated in society than in European society. There has to be something we're doing right that you're doing wrong. THAT is what I'm freaking trying to say!

Well first step is just drop the whole Muslim aspect.

What is the US doing to integrate immigrants that the UK isn't doing?

[smjjames]

@Scriver: We have our problems, yes, I'm not denying that, but explain how muslims in the US are far more integrated in society than in European society. There has to be something we're doing right that you're doing wrong. THAT is what I'm freaking trying to say!

What is the US doing to integrate immigrants that the UK (and every other European country) isn't doing?

Bam, exactly. Thanks for summarizing what I was trying to say.

[martinuzz]

Not much, except for instilling every kid with patriotism and flag waving affection from young age and using the power of Oprah to complete the brainwashing program.
National pride is still tainted over here in Europe.

Still, you too had your Boston bombers

[Silverthrone]

Notes on A Disagreeable Ism
Or
Silverthrone Complains & Mutters with Unusual Clarity

The root problem, in my mind, of multiculturalism is that insidious, vicious little “ism” stamped on its tail.

Cultural exchange occurs 'naturally', as it were, and so do cultural enrichment. That is, proper cultural enrichment, not the hideous, harmful fraud that is often labelled as such. It is simply what happens when people and cultures rub together.

However, the addition of an “-ism” makes it ideology. It means that cultural exchange should not merely happen, but should be encouraged at any cost, and that it is a goal in and of itself to become “multicultural”. It also carries with it a certain ideal. An ideal of the future that multiculturalism will build, and also what it is. One of these ideals is that everyone will be in agreement of the things that matter, such as the universal human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of orientation and so forth.

That ideal, however, does not stand up very well. There are an awful lot of people who, for partly cultural reasons, reject universal human rights, freedom of speech, et cetera, and would like them counter-acted and reworked. That, I believe, cannot be allowed. However, by the ideal, tolerance and acceptance for a strange culture, and the eventual fusion with it, is of such value that it cannot risk being hindered, and that the home culture ought not to impose its own traits upon it. Part of this is the ideal that, if left alone and given room, all cultures will abandon the less palatable traits within it, and adopt the same respect and belief in universal human rights et al. on its own. That, of course, does not necessarily need to happen.

That is but one difficulty I have with cultural exchange being elevated to a strange ideology of its own. Cultural exchange need not be good, just as little as it would be entirely bad. There are negative traits, and it is well within the rights of members of other cultures to decide if they wish to see those traits imported and those customs practised in their lands.

I believe that the rigid, narrow-sighted ideological form of multiculturalism is well due for the scrap-yard. The alternative need not be equally narrow-sighted Puritanism and repression in the name of halting cultural change. Merely seeing cultural exchange as a neutral phenomenon rather than a great ideal will be enough. Some exchange ought to be encouraged, some must be challenged.

@Scriver: We have our problems, yes, I'm not denying that, but explain how muslims in the US are far more integrated in society than in European society. There has to be something we're doing right that you're doing wrong. THAT is what I'm freaking trying to say!

The Americas are significantly farther away from the Middle East, and has been more difficult to enter and settle within. It is a rather small factor, but it might have reflected itself in that most of the muslims migrating to the United States might have been more willing and prepared to integrate and build a new community, rather than attempting to import the old life and community with them. Perhaps settling in America was more of a new endeavour, a fresh start, requiring a certain set of mind, while moving to, say, Belgium was a simpler affair in response to a crisis back home.

That is, however, an assumption. I do not know, and I am rather intrigued to understand more about it.

[martinuzz]

Yeah, the fact that in the US, about 1% of the population is muslim vs 5-10% or more (France, 11%) in EU countries might have something to do with it as well.

[Loud Whispers]

You keep overgeneralizing things that are being said. No, no Muslim preachers in general, just those that preach intolerance and hatred. Most notably, Saudi funded wahabist preachers. Belgium deported a handful last year iirc, and the Netherlands tried to stop one that was banished from Belgium from entering the country but failed legally.

Silly, that, really. We can has stop Turkish minister from speaking in our country, but we cannot has stop hate-imam.

Pretty much, what Reelya said earlier about Imams being able to help young Muslims (especially recent converts) become productive members of their community is correct, yet it makes no sense to ignore the ones who are doing the exact opposite and telling their spiritual dependents to go kill everyone.

Mostly stuff in this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England

What are you referencing? What argument are you making? What parallels are occurring? Please for sake of clarity use compound sentences describing these most important details.

If I am overgeneralizing then I am 100 times more specific then what has been said. "Vague Muslim enemies" is kind of propagandist.

Are you trolling?

Bam, exactly. Thanks for summarizing what I was trying to say.

If this was merely an issue of immigration, we would be dealing with Slavic and Hindu mass murderers on the street, shouting adidas is the brand of peace and waving around Hindu swastikas. Besides all the reasons I listed in a few posts back here, integration was dealt with in the multicultural fashion. Germany, the Netherlands, France and Sweden all have very specific and different patterns of immigration and multiculturalism, which I will not generalize, so instead will focus on the UK.

From the Beeb:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Farzana Ameen (39), left with her husband Imran Ameen (40) and five children to join ISIS. She told relatives whatever she was doing was for the best for their children. They were not discriminated against, because they lived in areas that are almost exclusively Muslim that show hostility to Christians who work or live there. The Council of Bradford Mosques also leading the British attempt to extend blasphemy laws, ban the satanic verses or force an apology from Salman Rushdie, who had to be put under the protection of British police due to a fatwa issued against him. His book was burned in his stead.
Mohammed Fakhri Al-Khabass (25), a British-Palestinian medical student, the son of a Muslim doctor, by 2011 he took over the University's Islamic Cultural Association and under his leadership, started pushing for stricter Islam and eventually recruited 16 British students to join ISIS in Iraq and Syria before joining them there himself. He was living in Sudan, where the constitution is proudly 100 percent Islamic without communism or secularism or Western influences, to set an example for its neighbours.
Rehan Ameen (30), brother to Imran Ameen, joined for reasons unknown. Lived in Bradford.
Mohammed Saleem Mohamed Ahmed El-Raba'a (23), medical student, joined ISIS after being recruited by Fakhri Al-Khabass.
Ayman Siddig Abdel-Aziz (21), medical student, same as Saleem.
Amier Mamoun Sidahmed Elawad (20), same as Saleem.
Mohamed Adil Bashir Ageed (22), about to graduate from Med school, same as Saleem.
Ibrahim Adil Bashir Ageed (20), same as Saleem.
Sugra Dawood (34), eldest of three sisters who left with her five children (in total, their group had 9 children traveling with them) who went to pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia. Instead of going home to Bradford, went to Iraq and Syria. She ignored her husband's appeal to come home with their kids.
Zohra Dawood (33), Khajida Dawood (30), went with Sugra.
Rajia Khanom (21), part of an extended family of 12, went to Bangladesh for a holiday but failed to return home to Luton, instead saying they felt safer than they ever felt before living in ISIS's territory.
Mohammed Zayd Hussain (25), Mohammed Toufique Hussain (19), Roshanara Begum (24), Mohammed Saleh Hussain (26), Sheida Khanam (27), Mohammed Abil Kashem Saker (31), Minera Khatun (53), Muhammed Abdul Mannan (75), the extended family of Rajia. A quarter of Luton is Muslim and is famed for having been the birthplace of Salafi jihadist groups, the same which produced the terrorist who beheaded one of our soldiers on our streets.
Deqo Osman (18), got into University and applied for a student loan, upon which point he use the loan money not to pay for Uni fees, but to fly to Syria because he wanted to live in an Islamic Utopia. Deqo Osman flew back on the behest of his father after having stayed in an ISIS safehouse, upon his return to the UK he was detained and has been sentenced 5 years in prison, the court were lenient because he had an IQ of 65.
Swaleh Mohammed (19), Ibrahim Amouri (18), Khalid Abdul-Rahman (19), friends from mosque who traveled with Deqo Osman to join ISIS, but returned and were prosecuted. Their IQs were not small like Deqo. Mohammed Osama Badri (age unknown), one of the med students recruited by Saleem. Rowan Kamal Zine El-Abidine (age unknown), one of the med students who ran the Islamic Cultural Association with Saleem, running the branch for women's activities. Tasneem Suliman (age unknown), another med student born from doctors who went with Saleem. Husham El-Sheikh (age unknown), med student who left with Saleem.
Lena Mamoun Abdelgadir (19), daughter of a surgeon who grew up in East Anglia, as a med student went off with Saleem. Described as furiously bright by her teachers. Lojain Abusibah (age unknown), had graduated from medicine when he joined ISIS with Saleem.
Tamir Ahmed Abusibah (24), graduated from medicine when he joined ISIS with Saleem. Nada Sami Khider (age unknown), made propaganda videos in Syria urging British medical students to come to Syria to work in ISIS hospitals.
Ahmed Sami Khider (24), med graduate, went to grammar school, son of a doctor, told those in the West: "All you are doing is sitting in the West in the comfort of your homes. Use your skills and come here."
Hassan Munshi (17), Britain's youngest suicide bomber, his parents believed some kind of peer pressure caused him to die for ISIS. Police had this statement: "But the police can't arrest everyone - and evidence shows it is difficult to bring someone back from the edge, once they are radicalised." But the Danes are bringing their fighters back and allowing them to walk their streets anyways. I digress.
Shamima Begum (15), Khadiza Sultana (16), Amira Abase (15), three straight-A students who went to Syria. From Tower Hamlets, the only local authority in England where Muslims are the largest population, there's not much to say about their story, so have the Guardian talking about how Jihadi brides aren't oppressed and join for the same reasons men do, to think otherwise is sexist and that is the most important concern here.
Abu Zayd al-Britani (age unknown, real name unknown), speaks with a British accent and says he's Al-Britani.
Ibrahim Kabir Sadik (24), converted to Islam who worked as a teacher after graduating with an economics degree, lived in London. Not much else to say about him other than he was linked to some men who tried to defraud English pensioners of £1,000,000. Sharmeena Begum (14), hometown London, was studying for GCSEs before leaving East London to join ISIS.
Hamayun Tariq (age unknown) a car mechanic from the West Midlands whose had his social media accounts repeatedly suspended because he uses them to post bomb making instructions. He joined ISIS already a veteran warrior who previously fought for the Taliban, now teaching his students how to repair vehicles and manufacture IEDs.
Jack Letts (18), also known as Jihadi Jack, is the first Englishman on this list. His parents said he was mentally ill, and Jack denies he is a member of ISIS. Nonetheless he says he fears prosecution if he returns and his motive is he wants to spread the word of Allah, take down the Syrian government and believes the USA is trying to exterminate Muslims one by one. From a middle class Christian English family in Oxford.
Aisha Tariq (30), left London with her four kids and her husband.
Her husband Dhar (31) was an advocate for global jihad and released a video showing him executing alleged spies for working with "the crusader coalition." His video warns that those who do not turn to Islam or do not return to it will lose in this life and the next, before ordering a child to press the detonation trigger.
Samya Dirie (17), Yusra Hussien (15), the former from London and the latter from Bristol, told parents they were prospecting at Universities but took their passports with them, at which point their parents contacted police. Appealing to his daughter through the media her father, Abidirashiid Saciid Dirie said: "You are after paradise by going there, but you will achieve paradise by pleasing your parents." Neither have returned, and it is suspected Yusra has gotten married.
Sajid Aslam (34), supply teacher who went to fight for ISIS. His wife Lorna Moore (originally a northern Irish protestant) was a part of the 'Babies for ISIS' group and was convicted before she could fly to Syria to join her husband.
Issam Abuanza (36) from Sheffield, worked in the NHS as a doctor for 7 years before joining ISIS to work as a doctor for them. Dr. Abuanza had this to say about the live incineration of the captured Jordanian:“I would’ve liked for them to burn him extremely slowly and I could have treated him again so we could have torched him once more.” Abu Waqqas al-Albani (age unknown, real name unknown), he describes himself as Al-Albani and his hometown was London. Joined ISIS and made videos calling for a Brussels style attack in London, and videos encouraging suicide attacks in London.
I just picked these from top down, left to right, got bored and stopped researching each individual profile, search the rest if you want more. (I am probably on all the watchlists now lol).

The takehome is Western progressive strategy has made everything worse, and will continue to make everything worse.
Contrary to popular views - religious practice, health and social inequalities, discrimination, and political engagement showed no links. What increases risk is youth, wealth, and being in full-time education. Many of our most extreme radicals, willing to die and kill for ISIS, come from areas where discrimination targets Christians, Jews, Hindus Slags, Gays, Drunks, Apostates and so on, and they live well-off with no financial worry. And Germany invited millions of young fundamentalist Sunni men who they're now educating and are counting on to run their country as Germans die out. I'm damn excited at what the hell's going to happen in Germany.
If the conclusion americans find is that europeans are not tolerant and progressive enough, failure will continue to be the result and yuropoors will be europast

To start with, our government forced mass immigration to make the UK multicultural. They then encouraged all arrivals to behave not as individuals, but as communities.
For seconds, I dispute the claim that the USA has integrated Muslims into US society better than in European society. The USA's post 9/11 paranoia, wherein Sikhs are killed for being mistaken as Muslim, has not been a forgiving one. By contrast the British fighters who volunteered to join ISIS and commit genocide, great raping and destruction of Syria's people - are undeniably British, and are people who had integrated exceedingly well. This is in spite of the USA's Muslim population being a quarter converts who are already integrated Americans, in spite of the USA having a stringent selection process for who enters the USA, and the USA's Muslim population being small - this is rather cheeky then, to turn around and say that Europe should not do as the USA does. Having good jobs, good education, good family and friends, behaving well and even when abroad speaking English with English accents, complaining when their Arab colleagues steal their shoes and play the same vidya or watch the same TV as their peers at home, if they were not committing war crimes they wouldn't have an issue in the UK. What really separates them from everyone else is their willingness to kill all infidels who do not subscribe to their fundamentalist doctrines. Lack of integration is an issue, however one that is most prudent when dealing with new immigrants, not as serious an issue as for those who have been born and raised in the UK. There are some further issues, such as Western treatment of apostates in Islam or treatment of Muslims as one homogenous community, not a heterogenous one split by nationality, sect, practice, adherence to orthodoxy or fundamentalism, individual belief or local custom, which I might go on about but at this point I am exhausted.

[scriver]

Yeah, the difference is that European countries accept a whole lot more Muslim immigrants than the US, which makes it possible for them to segregate themselves from the rest of society. For Sweden, the main problem with this appear to have started in the early 00's and just kept getting bigger and bigger (unsurprisingly it is the children of those who arrived then that is now growing up into terrorists, ISIS volunteers and the like.
People who arrived before then, like a lot of kurds and Iranians, are much better integrated into Swedish society.