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Author Topic: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread  (Read 1108846 times)

Sergarr

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4905 on: February 18, 2017, 10:42:36 pm »

I can't believe it, but I'm somehow agreeing with Covenant on this. Too many people see tradition and culture as a completely useless brake that prevents progress, and they're partially right - it does do that. But it also prevents regression and degradation - and the thing about those is that, if you don't take precautions, they happen so much faster as to potentially nullify all your decades of achieved progress in a matter of years, if not months. Destruction is naturally always much, much easier than creation.

Though, care should be taken to distinguish between tradition and reactionism. First is when people try to maintain what's already in place, preserving your history in its entirety, second is when people try and forcibly turn back the clock and return to some kind of "golden age", while discarding most of everything that happened since that moment. Ever read Victoria, the Fourth-Generation-War (or something like that)? That's how reactionism looks like, in my opinion.
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redwallzyl

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4906 on: February 18, 2017, 10:52:54 pm »

I can't believe it, but I'm somehow agreeing with Covenant on this. Too many people see tradition and culture as a completely useless brake that prevents progress, and they're partially right - it does do that. But it also prevents regression and degradation - and the thing about those is that, if you don't take precautions, they happen so much faster as to potentially nullify all your decades of achieved progress in a matter of years, if not months. Destruction is naturally always much, much easier than creation.

Though, care should be taken to distinguish between tradition and reactionism. First is when people try to maintain what's already in place, preserving your history in its entirety, second is when people try and forcibly turn back the clock and return to some kind of "golden age", while discarding most of everything that happened since that moment. Ever read Victoria, the Fourth-Generation-War (or something like that)? That's how reactionism looks like, in my opinion.
yes, culture is humanities way for both promoting social stability and passing down knowledge. but their is a difference between culture and beliefs influenced by historical events.
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Grim Portent

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4907 on: February 18, 2017, 10:57:39 pm »

Personally I would attribute a lot of societal problems to a lack of investment in things that are integral to a properly functioning society.

Ostracizing and excising harmful ideologies is important, but such things don't become problems when there aren't wider systemic problems, like poverty, food and job shortages, wars, lack of housing, underfunded schools/police/etc, lax working safety standards and so on. Nazis and other political extremists don't make headway when things are going well, and the same is generally true of cultural or religious extremist movements. They feed on people who feel alienated and disenfranchised.

For a long time now across Europe a lot of important services have been run ragged by struggling to deal with growing populations and inflation without investment rising fast enough to keep up. Housing and schools in the UK would be my foremost example, maybe police as well I guess. All things that have been struggling to cope with changes for over a decade, but not getting much done for them because the money goes elsewhere, which leaves people in a lot of places feeling abandoned and making problems of poverty and deprivation get worse than they would be if it was caused purely by unemployment.

In regards to interacting with outside cultures and faiths, I honestly would probably deal with them the same way I would deal with the ones already present who have practices I think are bad enough to warrant dealing with. Ban a list of cultural/religious practices and tenets, and exile anyone who practices them. Exile is a difficult thing to do these days, since basically everywhere belongs to someone or is protected from human interference, but there's bound to be some island out there that could be made barely livable and used to dump people on.

Spoiler: Examples (click to show/hide)

This would probably be a human rights violation, but I do think that it's acceptable for a country to say 'we don't want this here' provided the place they put people isn't significantly worse than the country itself. An island with a bunch of solar panels for power, desalinators for water and some cropland and houses and basic infrastructure wouldn't cost an unreasonable amount for a country to set up and would probably be more humane than prisons are. Probably couldn't support everyone dumped there without major rationing, but that's not something I strictly care about provided it's better than a warzone or a place stricken by famine and disease.




On the tradition subject, I am among those who mostly feel it's a shackle holding people back, but then my own people's culture was actually suppressed by the crown for a long time after some rebellions from the more traditional elements way back. Today most of what I value in my society is less than 70 years old and is embodied by exactly one major political group. I don't give a crap about Gaelic, barely anyone speaks it, I actively view Christianity (and all the Abrahamic faiths to be precise) as an enemy despite having been raised in it, don't care about Burns or Wallace or the old wars between us and England, I have no rose tinted desire to return us to being an industrial nation despite seeing the wrecks of old factories all over my hometown. The extent of 'old' traditions in my culture that I like are my fondness for tartan (iffy on kilts though) and bagpipes, and both of them were outlawed for three centuries. I'm not even going to start on our actively bad traditions like secular violence and rampant alcohol culture, we've only just managed to mostly deal with the former and the latter is proving resilient.
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redwallzyl

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4908 on: February 18, 2017, 11:08:13 pm »

I think LW's progressivism-conservatism-libertarianism-nationalism setup makes sense in this regard.

I remember, back in high school, I was having a discussion with my Spanish teacher. It was right after we had gone off to watch a lovely demonstration of various cultural dances and traditions by various South American groups. I was asking her why it feels like I don't have a culture.

While she wasn't able to give me a full answer, at least now I know why I'm even asking the question. I think it was after that that I retreated towards my Canadian heritage (I'd much rather retreat towards that than my father's Croato-Serbian heritage, just saying). At least that way, I'm a bit more balanced.
its hard to see your own culture because it "normal". doesn't help that the modern world tries to reduce all to money at the cost of previously key cultural instutions.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 11:10:18 pm by redwallzyl »
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Silverthrone

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4909 on: February 19, 2017, 01:20:33 am »

I agree. Tradition can be a shackle, but I believe that it has been unfairly dismissed in this day and age. It is as if there is only one way, and everything that is not new hinders the voyage there. Added to which is the unpleasant undercurrent of "cultural enrichment", which seems to more and more imply replacement.
Of course, heritage should neither be put under glass, never to be used again, nor should it be thrown on the fire, because of its age. It is there to be used.

If I may reach for metaphor again, I'd liken a culture and a people to a ship, and heritage to an anchor. A ship without an anchor is not in any shape to be at sea.

I think LW's progressivism-conservatism-libertarianism-nationalism setup makes sense in this regard.

I remember, back in high school, I was having a discussion with my Spanish teacher. It was right after we had gone off to watch a lovely demonstration of various cultural dances and traditions by various South American groups. I was asking her why it feels like I don't have a culture.

While she wasn't able to give me a full answer, at least now I know why I'm even asking the question. I think it was after that that I retreated towards my Canadian heritage (I'd much rather retreat towards that than my father's Croato-Serbian heritage, just saying). At least that way, I'm a bit more balanced.

I think it's natural for humans to want a group to belong to. Some people in the modern age increasingly substitute the national, racial or religious groups of old with political or ideological groups.

But for my part, I feel tied to my country and its heritage - my heritage - in a way I never could be to a political movement or a religious group. As a bloke representing seven men called George and five women called Victoria said, I am an Englishman. And what do they know of England, who only England know?

I do have similar feelings. It is rather like a candle in a dark night for me, in these strange times. I cannot quite get that sensation across without being unbearably sentimental, but it is there. It is less of a group which I have membership in. It is more like a gift, something that is mine, to keep and look after. With all its faults and all its luggage, of course, but it matters nonetheless.
Since my faith is partly bound up in that heritage, I cannot quite separate the two, but even without it, the heritage I have been gifted is tremendously valuable.
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martinuzz

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4910 on: February 19, 2017, 05:41:46 am »

A Dutch Pastafari who had filed a lawsuit against the state, demanding he be allowed to wear a sieve with spaghetti on his head on his driving license photo, has lost.
He claimed that, since muslimas are allowed to wear a head scarf on their drivers license photo on basis of religious freedom, he should also be allowed to wear spaghetti.

The judge ruled that the church of the FSM does not meet the minimum criteria to be regarded as a religion by Dutch law, so he cannot claim religious freedom.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Reelya

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4911 on: February 19, 2017, 06:02:45 am »

Personally I care little for most age of consent laws, they're usually not based on anything other than what minimum point made the person writing the laws stop feeling icky or the maximum point a morally protective sort thought they could get away with, neither of which is a good basis for laws, even if it is annoyingly the only method we have to determine some.

It's complicated by changes in nutrition. You can google it, but puberty today in the west is 5 years earlier than in 1920 according to one site, and i've read that it's 6 years earlier than the 19th century. Also height has increased due to better nutrition. So if you look at a 16 year old today, he/she probably has the physicality of a 21 year old from a century ago, and probably better mental development on average. I'd say 16 (like Australia) is a good rule of thumb however. But everything related should be the same age. Here you could legally bonk as many 16-17 year olds as you like, but if they sexted you a pic, you'd go to jail as a pedo. Which is pretty silly.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:22:04 am by Reelya »
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Detoxicated

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4912 on: February 19, 2017, 11:45:05 am »

So I was wondering Covenant, if one, who has the ability to understand the complexities of a neo-liberal capitalist world policies and its consequences for the third-world, suggests that people fleeing from countries being exploited by dictators that are empowered by foreign powers and corporations, with no real hope that this could be changed from within their country, to be shot down at the border, and then later on the same one is making a comment about the blonde swedish liberals turning opposite, how can that one not be seen as a hate speaker?
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Sergarr

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4913 on: February 19, 2017, 11:53:29 am »

I think it's because "hate speech" implies actual hate of other people. Not the "neutral indifference to their fate", which is what Covenant is about. You can not hate people and not care about their well-being at the same time. It's not a one-bit slider where you either love them and want to help them, or you hate them and want to hurt them.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4914 on: February 20, 2017, 10:01:13 am »

A Dutch Pastafari who had filed a lawsuit against the state, demanding he be allowed to wear a sieve with spaghetti on his head on his driving license photo, has lost.
He claimed that, since muslimas are allowed to wear a head scarf on their drivers license photo on basis of religious freedom, he should also be allowed to wear spaghetti.

The judge ruled that the church of the FSM does not meet the minimum criteria to be regarded as a religion by Dutch law, so he cannot claim religious freedom.
What are those minimum criteria?
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Jopax

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4915 on: February 20, 2017, 10:03:19 am »

The holy book needs to be old enough that the majority of it isn't applied because it's either obsolete or too much of a hassle to do so :P
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martinuzz

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4916 on: February 20, 2017, 01:17:23 pm »

A Dutch Pastafari who had filed a lawsuit against the state, demanding he be allowed to wear a sieve with spaghetti on his head on his driving license photo, has lost.
He claimed that, since muslimas are allowed to wear a head scarf on their drivers license photo on basis of religious freedom, he should also be allowed to wear spaghetti.

The judge ruled that the church of the FSM does not meet the minimum criteria to be regarded as a religion by Dutch law, so he cannot claim religious freedom.
What are those minimum criteria?
No idea
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4917 on: February 20, 2017, 01:48:32 pm »

Dutch religious freedom now officially lesser than that of Australia.
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Antioch

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4918 on: February 20, 2017, 01:57:54 pm »

A Dutch Pastafari who had filed a lawsuit against the state, demanding he be allowed to wear a sieve with spaghetti on his head on his driving license photo, has lost.
He claimed that, since muslimas are allowed to wear a head scarf on their drivers license photo on basis of religious freedom, he should also be allowed to wear spaghetti.

The judge ruled that the church of the FSM does not meet the minimum criteria to be regarded as a religion by Dutch law, so he cannot claim religious freedom.

Rather dubious verdict considering the church of the FSM was recognised as an official church last year.

http://nos.nl/op3/artikel/2083186-vanaf-nu-telt-het-vliegend-spaghettimonster-geloof-echt-mee.html
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martinuzz

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #4919 on: February 20, 2017, 02:09:19 pm »

A Dutch Pastafari who had filed a lawsuit against the state, demanding he be allowed to wear a sieve with spaghetti on his head on his driving license photo, has lost.
He claimed that, since muslimas are allowed to wear a head scarf on their drivers license photo on basis of religious freedom, he should also be allowed to wear spaghetti.

The judge ruled that the church of the FSM does not meet the minimum criteria to be regarded as a religion by Dutch law, so he cannot claim religious freedom.

Rather dubious verdict considering the church of the FSM was recognised as an official church last year.

http://nos.nl/op3/artikel/2083186-vanaf-nu-telt-het-vliegend-spaghettimonster-geloof-echt-mee.html

Dubious indeed. Still, bureaucratically not impossible. A registration with the Kamer van Koophandel means the church is accepted as a business, under the business category church (which amongst others exempts them from most company taxes). That does not nescessarily mean it is recognized by law as a religion. De Kamer van Koophandel does not have the authority to declare that.
Not sure which government agency would have that authority, but surely not the Kamer van Koophandel (which is the Dutch version of the Chamber of Commerce, nothing more, nothing less).
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479
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