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[DJ]

Or they could start incarcerating illegal immigrants that can't be deported because they destroyed their papers. Keep them locked up until papers surface or they die of old age, whichever comes first. For everyone else, there's mass deportations. As for genuine refugees, I don't see any reason to allow them freedom of movement. Lock them in camps as well, until they can go back home / they decide to go to some other country.

[Loud Whispers]

Seed the border with tentacle monsters

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Loud Whispers]

Then going after the human traffickers/boats becomes a political tool, one that will inevitably get caught up in partisanship and the cogs of bureaucracy until nothing is being done.

France rolls around West Africa and Libya without that issue, doubt that'd be much of an issue now either unless the EU wanted to take control or something. Even so, the EU wanting to take control would surely only add a few more years, which yeah would cost Europe more but you're never too late for damage control

If I tell people that if they try to break into my house I'll shoot them, and then they try to break into my house and I shoot them - who's at fault? Particularly given how so many of these people are economic migrants rather than genuine refugees.

Well it is their fault but you gotta also factor in the wonderful thing called wishful thinking and ignorance
Imagine someone has told you that for $5,000 they can send you to a paradise where the government gives you FREE MONEY, the girls come easy and the drugs are cheap, they all stay skinny cos they just don't eat, you live like a big rockstar and all it takes is to get to that country where all the euros let you stay forever. Once you embark on that journey you're not likely to give up even after you're disillusioned because otherwise you just wasted all that money lol

As far as 'Any means necessary goes', to eliminate ambiguity: sufficient measures would probably be putting armed guards on the borders, and if necessary, lethally shooting anyone who attempts to breach the border - after verbally warning them and firing a warning shot.

All unnecessary imo
If they're already at your border their options for turning back are diminished, much better to intercept them before they make landfall, especially since euros don't like having borders inside their clay. Moreover once they're at your border, I guarantee euros will work to bring them inside even at risk of their own lives, they love that shit, makes for good careers in media
Plus you gotta consider the mental health of the border guards who are having to shoot loads of young lads for a living or face failing their country. Don't want to put them in that position unless shit has absolutely hit the fan, europe isn't undergoing civil war yet so I'd say that's not worth it yet.

Shut down the human trafficking rings, make it clear anyone entering illegally will be repatriated, and actually go about repatriation and deportation - bingo, you've removed the incentive and the ability to get to Free Germoneyland. Then you'll only have to be dealing with those who go by plane with fraudulent visas or all that, which is a much smaller group of people (talking thousands versus millions).

Also really, you gotta factor in the psychology aspect - do young men fear armed guards more than they love pretty women? No, they have never, and they do not fear death when the stakes are that high. It's one of the basest biological instincts right next to survival ones, so euros need to just chuck liberalism everywhere in Africa and Asia, everywhere gender equality and social equality just ~everywhere~. If African and Asian nations undergo their own sexual revolution then the sexual fetishisation of the occidental world will cease.

Also if you want a scary border then armed guards who will kill you is not the scariest image, you need stuff like dog patrols. For some reason dogs scare people more than armed guards, I think it's because you can't really reason with dogs. Also dayum, border fences are not cheap, nor are security guards. Intercepting human traffickers and their vehicles saves a hell of a lot more money than walls; walls by nature of being a fixed defence, will be always overcome by fluid and patient enemies, of which traffickers are very patient. Imagine spending all your money on a Med wall only for traffickers to switch route to Turkey -> Black Sea -> Ukraine -> Yurop

You'd only need a few idiots testing you before the rest learn not to. Just make sure the media broadcast it nice and loud, give it twice the reach 'Refugees welcome' ever did. Then when coming over to Europe to get a free flat and welfare isn't an option, perhaps they'll be more invested in unfucking their own countries.

Also the West needs to stop fucking over their countries
Really cheeky for Clinton clones to talk about how we need to accept refugees whilst in the process of destroying their homes. Seems obvious, if you don't destroy their homes, no refugees. Destroying someone else's homes is a dick move, thus Europe must more actively counter Russian and American imperialism, and not suffer the temptation to replace either's hegemony with yuro hegemony

The problem being that some parts of the world are so poor that incarceration in a Western prison or whatever would be a step-up. And we'd have to pay for that prison, for their guards, their food, etc. Not that I'm saying we shouldn't incarcerate them, just that it's an imperfect and ultimately costly solution.

Also it's a bad mix. Prisons and militant groups go hand in hand, you don't want to be taking away years of free life from people who really don't deserve it

One interesting idea I've seen proposed is that for every £/$/Euro spent imprisoning someone in the above situation, or a non-citizen who needs medical care, etc, you deduct that amount from your foreign aid budget.

Nah, taking away foreign aid budget is a silly idea. Foreign aid is the way forward, or rather, foreign development is the way forward and foreign aid maintains the status quo.
Look at it this way, Germany has wasted vast sums of money paying for people wealthy enough to pay off human traffickers, whilst those too poor or actively under brutal regimes are incapable of fleeing - these people need help, help which Germany is incapable of providing. If help is not provided for them, then for all in the country they will have few options except to flee or languish, which will either cost in welfare or border patrol either way. Foreign aid maintains the status quo so people can live, but it's not sustainable and solves little. Foreign development, helping other nations become self-sustaining and powerful national democracies with transparent governments free from corruption is the only way forward (that doesn't involve a militiarized border anyways). It is in my opinion, the smartest way forward; remove every cause for people to be refugees and make the world better

[LoSboccacc]

and where do you plan to deport them? we're not bordering mexico, we can't just drop them back after the border.

[Loud Whispers]

and where do you plan to deport them? we're not bordering mexico, we can't just drop them back after the border.

Place of origin or port of first call; euro geographical border policing is actually easier than USA/Mexico border. USA/Mexico border does not have an ocean in the way
Literally worse comes worse buying them a plane ticket to subsaharan african is still infinitely cheaper than extra infrastructure, security and welfare costs, or building an israel-tier wall. Eurowall?

[LoSboccacc]

because people don't lie about that, mright?

[Loud Whispers]

because people don't lie about that, mright?

If euros get millions of people showing up claiming to be sardinians I reckon the euros are smart enough to see through the ruse

[LoSboccacc]

also, country of origin won't accept them undocumented, unless you birbe them of course 

[Grim Portent]

because people don't lie about that, mright?

If euros get millions of people showing up claiming to be sardinians I reckon the euros are smart enough to see through the ruse

If they don't have any way to prove what country they came from then neither do the people trying to deport them, and it's not like you can ask the various countries in roughly the right geographic region if person X is from their nation or not without papers. Just dumping them in countries when you can't prove which one they should go to is just shifting the problem to less developed nations at best and akin to dumping them in the middle of the Atlantic at worst.

[Loud Whispers]

also, country of origin won't accept them undocumented, unless you birbe them of course

They're legally obliged to accept their own peeps, besides all that foreign development money you can just remarket as bribes and shit instead of humanitarian stuff

If they don't have any way to prove what country they came from then neither do the people trying to deport them, and it's not like you can ask the various countries in roughly the right geographic region if person X is from their nation or not without papers. Just dumping them in countries when you can't prove which one they should go to is just shifting the problem to less developed nations at best and akin to dumping them in the middle of the Atlantic at worst.

Hence country of origin or port of first call, ensuring maximum flexibility in deporting illegal migrants; in regards to the latter just dumping them in Germany is shifting the problem from less developed nations to Germany, neither solving it in their home whilst making the problem worse and removing another actor capable of making things better. Thus if German Swede alliance is criticized by their own progresiv they can just point out the obvious; they're not their domestic problem unless they want them to be their domestic problem. As it stands, they do
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[Toady One]

DJ is out, and others are close.  "Mass racism is the only solution so let's have lynch mobs for economic immigrants" (paraphrase, but his phrases not mine) is not a thread I'm going to support on my forum.

[Loud Whispers]

Thanks Toady; I had hoped DJ was being hyperbolic

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah, locking everyone up in camps sounds like a terrible idea. I doubt there's any effective way to remove who already got through, but the least that can be done is remove the means of which they keep coming in (that is, illegal methods such as human smuggling). I think LW's proposal works rather nicely. For those already in? I think the only really useful tool here to handle them is time.

Solving the crisis with the threefold objectives of development, trafficking policing and border control could rather easily solve the migrant crisis there (barring of course such nations like Libya where there isn't really a local police force to cooperate with given the collapse of the state, or nations like Syria where the state is antagonistic). Still, given the Med's control by EU forces, very achievable, and would have the added benefit of constricting the flow of arms from the Balkans to the ME.

As for all the migrants already there, certainly for Germany and Sweden they have to acknowledge that their demographic change is permanent. To that end the first and foremost priority of the Germans and Swedish states is to stop trying to sell it like Newropeans or NewSwedes and sell it like it's cultural enrichment and some sort of economic awakening that will make everyone gay for the changes, long enough to buy time for immigrants to become future Germans and Swedes. That will be the biggest challenge, because without some great shared experience that is capable of uniting all the migrant groups together under one civic label, they will continue to kill one another long after the old europeans die, leaving a mess of a state full of people with no historical institutions they can use for protection
Europeans need a strong law court that applys to all and protects all regardless of faith

Regarding ISIS there's not much way to look at their recruitment efforts except as preparation for a second wave pending the collapse of its Syrian/Iraqi territory holdings. Thus there will be decades more conflict in Europe which will only get worse, on that front the EU needs to crack down on guns flowing from the balkans, eastern europe and the ME through the borderless schengen area. Whether ISIS ever grows large enough in Europe to bring war is another question, provided their weapons are restricted I doubt they'd have the material needed to mount effective military operations, but as it stands they cause enough disruption and damage with lorries and machetes. I suppose the only thing you can do is like what these guys are doing:

Meanwhile Sweden's national coordinator Mona Sahlin waded into the debate on Friday, comparing Isis propaganda in Sweden to Nazi swastikas.
 
"I hope that people can view the IS flag in the same way as the swastika. Then they can also intervene when they see the symbol," she told Swedish public broadcaster Sveriges Radio, describing the Islamist organisation as "the world's most dangerous terrorist group".

Really need to end that weird thing where euros look the other way to ISIS on their doorstep; an institution such as the law is uniquely positioned to deal with all equally and make something civic out of so many different people, but it isn't doing anything and if anything, is retreating. Police will be more valuable than ever to these nations, and will stop no go zones from setting up parallel courts and crafting rival states of authority within neurope, and the press needs to realize every time it lies it accelerates the growing instability of the west

Also Europeans need to either learn how to celebrate not in crowds, or else grow numb to the threat of terror attacks. Silly stuff where people are killed in a panicked stampede because someone threw a firecracker does not help, and certainly illustrates how with a few murders one can undermine trust between all of society. Besides, if it was a real attack fleeing in a panic would just make things worse :|

What do you guys think of giving citizenship to all the migrants in Germany? I reckon it brings up an interesting conundrum between Germany's ambitions, on how it wants both European integration and migrant integration. It wants lower migration but cannot impose borders lest it threaten Schengen, it wants to integrate migrants but cannot do so if they're all concentrated in Germany so tries to redistribute them to other nations, but that insults them and causes them to oppose German authority. Granting citizenship to legally awkward asylum seekers who can't be refused for as long as they're seeking asylum but can't legally work as long as they're not refugees and can't be deported until they're illegal immigrants is a great, fucking, mess. Citizenship would help moving towards a civic Germany but would most likely kill Schengen ded since the other Euro nations would not be pleased with Germany still being an open door to their countries - Germany exit EU wen?

[LoSboccacc]

citizenship brings voting right. million people living on welfare voting according to the whims of the underground mosque network is going to forever tip the scale in the german political landscape.

it's not just working rights, or shengen, albeit if that were to happen I'm gonna guess shengen would die shortly after the first problems.

[Loud Whispers]

Indeed. Much as I'm opposed to taking in these huge numbers of people, I don't support violence unless it's in the prevention of a crime. Or war, I suppose. Charles Martel did nothing wrong.

He created the French, he didn't combine with the byzantines he used gavelkind succession

If Germany really wants to bend over and spread those cheeks, let it, but let it leave Schengen and quarantine itself first. This demographic change won't just affect them, or us, it'll affect generations of Europeans to come in very serious ways. We're already seeing it, with - was it the French PM? - that 'We're going to have to just get used to terrorism' shit.

Yeah I find it hilarious but what you gonna do, can't do much except chuckle sensibly from the sideline isles thanking God that are based Nige was born. One thing I can say that is of deep concern is that the Germans have lost their protestant religious authority paranoia; they seem far too comfortable with saudi wahhabi clerics being their religious authority

ayy lmao crumbling civilizations make for awesome buildings tho
If you ask me it's a historical inevitability that Islam will rise to prominence in Germany; what Germany can do is affect what this rise will look like. Will it be liberal ottoman ecumenical humanism toleran stuff or will it be super salafi salami slicer