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[ChairmanPoo]

Neville Chamberlain gets a lot of shit nowadays from people who understand neither the situation at the time nor his efforts

[Antsan]

So you basically live in a democracy but simply give up when a problem arises making you the modern day Neville Chamberlain.
Hungarians are building a wall to force the migrants to go through war torn Ukraine and hopefully finally decide it's too dangerous turn back and troll Greece instead.
Meanwhile you're all "They will come anyway so why bother."

Sure leave the keys inside your car door.
If someone wants to steal it he can just break the window and hotwire it anyway so why even bother right?

Yay, let them "troll" Greece instead (because those migrants certainly are only out to annoy us), because that will certainly turn out fine in the long-term. Probably as fine as the situation in all those countries the migrants are coming from.

Ah, now I understand your reasoning: With the migrants coming from Greece in the future, maybe they'll be closer culturally. Good plan.

[Sonlirain]

Neville Chamberlain gets a lot of shit nowadays from people who understand neither the situation at the time nor his efforts

Yeah signing that pact that gave away Sudetenland with all the Czechoslovakian fortifications to germans was a sign of political farsight and genious.
Germany just walking into the entire country with german soldiers and tanks now surrounding Poland from 3 sides (if we cound soviet russia they were allied to) as a side benefit.
Nope it was a part of his amazing plan and not at all a sign of him being a daydreaming idiot.
Good intentions don't mean the effects of someones actions are to be forgotten.

Yay, let them "troll" Greece instead (because those migrants certainly are only out to annoy us), because that will certainly turn out fine in the long-term. Probably as fine as the situation in all those countries the migrants are coming from.

Ah, now I understand your reasoning: With the migrants coming from Greece in the future, maybe they'll be closer culturally. Good plan.

Well at least you realize what happens to countries that get too many migrants.
Greece is already on its way to becoming !!Greece!!.

[Antsan]

Well at least you realize what happens to countries that get too many migrants.

Because we totally take in all the migrants and generally Germany is in the same position as Greece. And those deals to spread the migrants across Europe didn't exist and actually the measure for migrants coming into Europe is actually "migrants/country", not just "migrants", so reducing the number of countries taking in migrants reduces the absolute amount of migrants.

[Sonlirain]

Well at least you realize what happens to countries that get too many migrants.

Because we totally take in all the migrants and generally Germany is in the same position as Greece. And those deals to spread the migrants across Europe didn't exist and actually the measure for migrants coming into Europe is actually "migrants/country", not just "migrants", so reducing the number of countries taking in migrants reduces the absolute amount of migrants.

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/grenade.htm

*incendiary comment about migrants transferring tropical diseases*

[Antsan]

 
Proud of yourself?

[Sonlirain]

Nah. Just bored and about to stop actually.
I learned my lesson ages ago and know it's virtually impossible to influence people who already made up their minds over the internet.
So quite honestly i'm mostly throwing opinions clashing with the (currently) more popular narrative for my own amusement.

But seriously now.
No i don't like unrestricted barely controlled immigration brought on by bleeding hearts.
Europe should get their shit together and finance refugee camps in more stable border countries near syria instead of making people undertake long and possibly lethal treks with a ludicrous promise that Germany & co. will take in everyone (whether the other countries like Hungary Poland or Latvia like it or not).

[scriver]

All points that are hard to argue, because to a certain degree they are subjectives. That doesn't made them bad per se, though, and if a majority of people from a country feels that way, they should be able to secede (just like parts of a country should be, I think allowed to secede for the same reasons).

However, I'd posit that some of these arguments also work, up to a point, as argument for some kind of European government. Surely, Swedes are not Frenchmen. But wouldn't you say that a Frenchman, a German and a Swede have more in common between them than they have with an American or a Chinese?

I think some level of European solidarity also exist. Identities, those sense of belonging, aren't exclusive. You can be a Stockolmite, a Swede, a Scandinavian and a European. I feel more solidarity for a Walloon that for a Flemish, more for a Belgian than for a Spaniard, and more for a Spaniard than for a Canadian.

I'd say Swedes have about as much in common with Germans and Frenchmen as they do with Americans. In many ways the rest of the EU is to Sweden what the US is to Europe - a large step backwards and rightwards from what we have achieved and/or want to achieve here. We probably have more in common with EU nations than with China, yeah, but it's not like the lowest common denominator ("we don't have enough in common to work together, but at least we still have more in common than you and [Country X]") is really an argument for a sovereignity-erasing government.

As for European solidarity, I disagree. I don't think of myself as a "European" at all, and last I saw a poll about it neither did the vast majority of people here. Europe is a geographical area to us, not an identifier. It is a place you are in, but not something you are.

[Sergarr]

clearly those native americans/irish/german/dutch/catholic/mexican immigrants are too numerous and live in close communities with each other, and thus will never assimilate to be true americans

also clearly all those uzbek/turkmen/buryat/kalmyk/tatars/muslims immigrants and natives in Russia living within close communities have caused it to collapse a long time ago due to their Bad Cultural Influences™ and formed a Muslim Caliphate from its remains

it is obvious, really, that the corrupting touch of evil muslim hordes is unstoppable by anything except bullets and flamethrowers

(I'm not serious here)

[Sonlirain]

also clearly all those uzbek/turkmen/buryat/kalmyk/tatars/muslims immigrants and natives in Russia living within close communities have caused it to collapse a long time ago due to their Bad Cultural Influences™ and formed a Muslim Caliphate from its remains

it is obvious, really, that the corrupting touch of evil muslim hordes is unstoppable by anything except bullets and flamethrowers

Russia is pretty big and rather good at shutting up dissenters tho.
If bullets and flamethrowers if needed.

[Vilanat]

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

So, how will we lose our culture?
By churches being burned down? By Muslims storming the Louvre and destroying everything inside? By Christians, Jews and Atheists converting to Islam? Will future musicians feel forced to sing about the greatness of Allah? Will they outbreed us until all the earlier Europeans go extinct?
I really, honestly do not get how letting them have their culture (as long as it's frictionless, of course) would impede us in our ability to keep our culture.

Muslim population growth is higher than non-muslim population growth, that is a well researched fact.

Given this well researched fact, if the Muslim population does not integrate and made into accepting core European values and culture, it is inevitable that the culture of Europe will change, through sheer volume alone, but also through active measures by the Muslim population. it is a natural process and not something which is unique for muslims.

The projections of the muslim population growth never took the recent immigration waves into consideration and in my opinion, even though it had recently slightly declined, it will rise again with the next imminent waves of violence and the result of environmental changes in the Middle East. they will have higher percentages and they have them in concentrated areas, usually and naturally near the power centers so their proportional effects will be higher than their percentage of the population, as high as it may get.

So and given the data we have regarding the success of integration of the Muslim population, it is safe to predict that Muslims will not one day accept the European values and culture, but will fight to keep their own and by doing so, might very well change Europe.

And how may that impact you? well, If you think it all comes down to whether you could no longer find a ham sandwich near you or that culture is summarized in the Louvre then i think you are seeing it at quite a superficial level.
On the obvious issues: One of every four muslims in the UK said it is ok to stone adulterers. one in every four muslims wants sharia laws, one in three said wives should always obey their men and more than half the muslims said homosexuality should be illegal.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

That's in the UK. if you had ran that poll among Iraqis, Afghans or Syrians the results would be much higher. if you don't think these views are coming from a fundamental cultural difference and collide with your own, than discussion really is futile. if you agree they collide with the generalized European culture but don't think a certain critical mass of people who hold these views could change your way of life, then i would like an explanation because i just don't seem to get how it is even possible.

[Sergarr]

also clearly all those uzbek/turkmen/buryat/kalmyk/tatars/muslims immigrants and natives in Russia living within close communities have caused it to collapse a long time ago due to their Bad Cultural Influences™ and formed a Muslim Caliphate from its remains

it is obvious, really, that the corrupting touch of evil muslim hordes is unstoppable by anything except bullets and flamethrowers

Russia is pretty big and rather good at shutting up dissenters tho.
If bullets and flamethrowers if needed.

1) Don't have anything to say for USA case?
2) I feel that you're missing the point. The point here being "most people of other cultures are not murder-death cultists bent on destroying your country, and indiscriminately prejudicing against them is detrimental for everyone".

There is a reason why Russia is not like Balkans, and it's not because we gassed everyone who was even a little bit different from ethnic Russian stereotype.

[Baffler]

There is a reason why Russia is not like Balkans, and it's not because we gassed everyone who was even a little bit different from ethnic Russian stereotype.

It was my understanding that Cossacks and colonists arriving in Siberia left something of a mark on the local populations, and while Tatars and other people the Russian Empire took over weren't just killed off (with a few exceptions, notably the Circassians) they weren't exactly tolerated either.

[Loud Whispers]

Frenchmen deciding the laws of Swedes is not good democracy.

But it is hilarious

I love the fact that my country's foreign office rules Europe, but we don't rule our foreign office

You either laugh or you cry

There already are immigration concentration camps, you know?

Lmao Germany had top reopen literal nazi concentration camps to house their migrants

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

East London was where Cockney culture was born, now it is gone, and in Whitechapel you'll find English isn't even the most common market language anymore - all done in 10 years of multicultural experimentation when our progressives sought massive migration. Completely pointless, but done anyways, and it's a simple case of numbers. That and I also think European culture is mainly based around destroying European culture, whilst most migrant cultures Europe is inviting are far stronger - if Europeans weren't spineless, they wouldn't be inviting stronger men to pay their pensions for them

So, how will we lose our culture?
By churches being burned down? By Muslims storming the Louvre and destroying everything inside? By Christians, Jews and Atheists converting to Islam? Will future musicians feel forced to sing about the greatness of Allah? Will they outbreed us until all the earlier Europeans go extinct?

1. Demographic shift and apathy  2. No, the Churches are empty.  3. I did go see the Lourvre recently for Islamic art and they have some juicy culture btw  4.  Lol you have not seen conversion rates then   5. Not forced, but they will have fun singing about the degeneracy of Europeans   6. That's already happened, Germany has come up with the bright idea that if everyone is migrants, no one is oppressed

I really, honestly do not get how letting them have their culture (as long as it's frictionless, of course) would impede us in our ability to keep our culture.

Their culture is superior to current year culture of Westerners, and further still have invited people who have no common history or culture
When the UK had loads of Indian people come over, there was no problem, they arrived and within three generations became part of our most prestigious workforce despite being Hindus from the world over. Then our government went full retard and invited loads of people who had nothing to do with the UK because diversity and we got displacement, Rotherhams and cheeky jihadi johns.

Oh my. my neighboor is arabic and sweared at guy for eating a ham sandwich last month. I better not be seen by him carrying pork from the market.
Oh my. my neighboor said I/my wife dresses slutty and should wear a longer skirt. Better wear less revealing clothing lest he gets offended.
Oh my. some islamic teens broke windows in the house next door because whoever lived there had music playing on ramadan. Better not play any music lest i offend them too!
That's how you pretty much give in bit after bit slowly cooked like a frog not realizing the water is getting hotter.

Tbh if being immoral is a part of your culture and you die not much of value was lost

Wow. So you're saying that you don't value your culture enough to actually protect it because it might be offensive, unless that protection is so drastic and offensive that it is beyond your moral event horizon.
Or in other words: You're too spineless to have a bit of a spat with people in the future, so you want soldiers to deal with the problem now.

Lol you'll get arrested if you fly St. George's cross in the wrong place here, don't bother losing everything trying to protect something all your leaders want dead unless you have a chance of winning

You feel safe with people living around you who believe it is fine to set fire to the buildings of people who disagree with them.
Better safe from cultural differences than safe from arson, I guess.

Better than getting Brussel'd by the naive

It's kind of tiring to be made out as "bleeding heart idiot", only because some people can't discern my blond hair from straw.

ur a fookin wite male m8

Can you explain what's up with your fetish for diversity you westerners seem to all have?
Literally everyone around where i live wants homogenized societies divided by clear borders where each is to their own and sees the recent immigrant wave as a danger to the point of actually lashing out at muslims who lived here for generations and were assimilated long ago (I wish i was joking about the burning mosques but sadly no /s there).

White people hate white people, they think by being diverse they can lose their whiteness
It's the Dolezals of the world that put the icing on my kek
You do get the funny situations like in the EU where our President says that Europe has always been diverse, therefore we must have mass migration to make it diverse. But if we're not already diverse, why are we making it diverse? Fuck knows, remove white ppl, they're ruining yurop

[Antsan]

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

So, how will we lose our culture?
By churches being burned down? By Muslims storming the Louvre and destroying everything inside? By Christians, Jews and Atheists converting to Islam? Will future musicians feel forced to sing about the greatness of Allah? Will they outbreed us until all the earlier Europeans go extinct?
I really, honestly do not get how letting them have their culture (as long as it's frictionless, of course) would impede us in our ability to keep our culture.

Muslim population growth is higher than non-muslim population growth, that is a well researched fact.

Given this well researched fact, if the Muslim population does not integrate and made into accepting core European values and culture, it is inevitable that the culture of Europe will change, through sheer volume alone, but also through active measures by the Muslim population. it is a natural process and not something which is unique for muslims.

The projections of the muslim population growth never took the recent immigration waves into consideration and in my opinion, even though it had recently slightly declined, it will rise again with the next imminent waves of violence and the result of environmental changes in the Middle East. they will have higher percentages and they have them in concentrated areas, usually and naturally near the power centers so their proportional effects will be higher than their percentage of the population, as high as it may get.

So and given the data we have regarding the success of integration of the Muslim population, it is safe to predict that Muslims will not one day accept the European values and culture, but will fight to keep their own and by doing so, might very well change Europe.

And how may that impact you? well, If you think it all comes down to whether you could no longer find a ham sandwich near you or that culture is summarized in the Louvre then i think you are seeing it at quite a superficial level.
On the obvious issues: One of every four muslims in the UK said it is ok to stone adulterers. one in every four muslims wants sharia laws, one in three said wives should always obey their men and more than half the muslims said homosexuality should be illegal.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

That's in the UK. if you had ran that poll among Iraqis, Afghans or Syrians the results would be much higher. if you don't think these views are coming from a fundamental cultural difference and collide with your own, than discussion really is futile. if you agree they collide with the generalized European culture but don't think a certain critical mass of people who hold these views could change your way of life, then i would like an explanation because i just don't seem to get how it is even possible.

Okay, how many refugees are there currently? This site says there are 19.5 million, over half of them under the age of 18 (meaning they are young and open to new ideas).

This says in 2014 the EU had a population of roughly 508 million. Completely ignoring that this population has very likely grown since then, that means we're gaining about 3.8% if we take them all in, which is completely absurd because, well, look at who's taking in the most refugees here – even if we take out the top contender (Turkey), that still is a significant number of refugees not being taken by the EU.

So, if we take them all in they make up around 3.7% of the population in the EU.


Let's take a look at birth rates:
The EU hovers around 1%, The others, combined, have around 4%. Syria, with most refugees, has around 3%, but that might be due to war not being conductive to reproduction, I don't know. I'm purposefully using the highest numbers here, despite them being the oldest.
Additional wealth, history teaches us, means less children in general. Yeah, it might take one or two generations for that effect to set in, but still.

And with all of that I think I can conclude that we're relatively safe from a Muslim takeover via being outbred. Of course, still assuming that all of the refugees are Muslim in the first place.

ur a fookin wite male m8

That was a strawman joke. I know, it was a bad one. Never had any problems with being white male, not even with people accusing me of exactly that. And that even when I am securely entrenched in a culture full of leftist political activism! Imagine that!