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[Erkki]

I hope you vote to leave too. If there was any doubt as to whether the EU was a joke before this fiasco, there is even less now. If you're of the "cool kids" northern Europe club, you get all kinds of prerrogatives, and the factic powers in the EU will scramble to grant even more at the slightest tantrum. If you're a South-European, however, you get shat upon without stop, and are supposed to ask for seconds.

About time this farce of a "union" is called out for what it is.

Yes, prerogatives such as being net payers towards the common EU budget. And the balance nose dives yearly. What do we get? A currency that makes foreign trade more difficult/less worth than it should be, East-European people taking up the low paid jobs and usually harmless but sometimes unprofessional, silly, plain harmful directives.

edit: I would love the EU to not fail but there need to be some seriously huge structural reforms within EU.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Why? Why all this unbidden hostility? ; ~ ;
I am deeply hurt, sir.

I can't tell if you're serious or not because tildes and all that, but if you are hurt, sorry there is no hostility between us. It is the friendly yurop thread!

All I wanted was to demolish the walls of dark misunderstanding between us and build bridges of clear communication and reliable sources, but alas, that was not to be. Now I shall never know whence came your 4 million Syrians – you have doomed me to an eternity in the wasteland of ignorance and incomprehension, far away from the reassuring light of citations.

Look in my posts, the ones just above the one you replied to if you're using 50ppp, the ones that actually had my arguments and not just shitposts. The reason why I think you're taking the mick is because you chose to respond to the most worthless of my posts there, stepping aside the four or five I put a great deal of thought to, with all backed by their sources - and you even then still resorted to using UNHCR contribution funds or real money donations as representative of the total aid budget I had already posted. If that's your attempt at clear communication and reliable sources you're either dishonest or doing poorly because you're muddying waters I've just spend a day cleaning :P
I don't know if you were trying to be deliberately misrepresentative or just googled the first stats you could use to diminish the appearance of British aid, but I don't stoop to shitposting of such a dishonest calibre. If you strip away all the irony and sarcasm and what you're left with is not a hilarious joke but only a lie, you can't say you wanted a serious discussion, you can't say you wanted banter, what then? All that's left are fights, frustration or dilution. Even now everything I said about the relationship between exports, imports, tariffs, jurisdictions, energy dependence, geopolitics, law, contributions, history - fuck it lets get ebiennnnn. I don't fling shit when people ask of me seriousness, and when I shitpost every shitpost is thoughtful - I don't joke around with cultural enrichment, if you put no thought to your shitposts and just regurgitate mindlessly you are 9gag. If you see hostility, don't - it's just seriousness, where everything is said with careful consideration, and full stops make everything look threatening anyways. That is why one should always beware using proper grammar on the internet.
It gets serious.

Yes, prerogatives such as being net payers towards the common EU budget. And the balance nose dives yearly. What do we get? A currency that makes foreign trade more difficult/less worth than it should be, East-European people taking up the low paid jobs and usually harmless but sometimes unprofessional, silly, plain harmful directives.

So it offers nothing to anyone and we should keep it because? I'm not being rhetorical, I don't get it and I haven't actually been told any positive arguments (or at least ones founded in reality, not apocalyptic notions of restricting Merkel from going on the warpath).

edit: I would love the EU to not fail but there need to be some seriously huge structural reforms within EU.

What does that mean? Every time reform is brought up they are only ever reforms which centralize more power to the Commission. I have not yet heard alternatives, and it's been made quite clear that the fundamental principles of the EU can never be compromised making reform only ever possible in moving towards even more centralization or independence.

Barely anyone posts sources for their arguments (and I'm starting to wonder whether Martin's got some sort of sponsorship deal going on with Volkskrant.nl).

mein seides
Also in sad news the Independent newspaper is closing down.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

'With Lebedev back in the country confirmation came the following morning that he intended to close the papers and "convert the digital foundation we've built into a sustainable, profitable future" by "enhancing" independent.co.uk, the fiefdom spun off into a separately owned company some years ago by co-owner Justin Byam Shaw. An estimated 100 hacks will be made redundant, while those who keep their jobs will come under the control of digital editor Christian Broughton, whose brusque style has long gone unchallenged by the company despite many staff complaints.

Broughton's clickbait-heavy diet of repurposed Reddit threads and YouTube Videos has proved such as success the International Business Times recently tried (but failed) to poach him for its own new sod-the-quality-look-at-the-numbers offering. Levedev's praise last week for the "thriving" website and its "fast-growing global footprint" suggest little is likely to change. Broughton has been looking chipper around the office, knowing he's in line for a big promotion, while print hacks weigh up whether to stay or go. There are already mutterings that staff will refuse to transfer to the website if it means working under the hated Broughton. "Literally the only person in the whole building who is a cunt - Broughton - is now in charge," noted one dispirited hack.
Sauce - The Private Eye

The Independent is one of those newspapers that managed to get mainstream, avoid loyalty to anyone and maintain very good quality. Too good to last.

Also Cameron getting 'everything he asked for' isn't much of a comfort when even EU leaders were saying they were surprised at how little he was asking for. God, I hope we vote to leave. And sod Emma Thompson!

EDIT: Apparently (I can't speak for its legitimacy, so huge pinch of salt) this is draft text of the 'Emergency brake' portion of the UK's deal. Seems pretty underwhelming. A guarantee to 'discuss these issues'... if that's legitimate, Cameron's more pathetic than I expected. He must have left his balls behind in that pig.

Is that all? All we got? A discussion? God dammit Cameron do your fucking job before Osborne beheads you
Also lol at their surprise, if that's genuine (and judging by their initial refusal to budge) I legitimately think they didn't realize whose side Cameron was on :P

Also let's be fair, we still have no confirmation on whether Cameron is haramsexual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggate
Ha, they called it piggate. Nixon you devil, if only you'd known what you'd unleashed. I also love that bit about how what was said cannot be illegal under libel because the legislators had not envisaged someone accusing someone else of sleeping with pork. Also I've just helped a permanent resident (non-subject of the UK who can stay forever essentially) come back home from abroad and when they were going through Heathrow immigration controls (separate ones for non-subjects) they were struck by how many people were getting turned back, more than they'd ever seen before in all their decades of coming in and out of Britain. So that got me thinking, if things are heavy on our end, how bad are they for you now?

Do we even have current statistics on migrant numbers? That last set of statistics that I saw that actually bothered to break them down by place of origin was from 2014 and early 2015.

Last I checked the numbers for 2015, the reasonable estimate was between 1.1 million for all of Europe on the low end by EU stats and 1.5 million for all Europe by humanitarian counts, Frontex has now put the number to over 1.8 million. And they're an EU organization so we should probably add a couple of zeros to the end :P
Wew lads, immigration is happening so powerfully even immigration from the past is increasing (or Eurocucks under-reported, personally I think time traveling immigrants culturally enriching me beyond the constraints of time is more likely. How do you think they discovered gravity waves? More waves of transdimensional enrichment).
More refugees arrived in Europe by boat during the first six weeks of 2016 than during the first four months of last year, the United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR) announced on Friday.
There were more than 80,000 refugees and migrants who arrived in Europe by boat during the first six weeks of 2016, according to the agency.
I wonder how much of that is just natural escalation or if you can see the point where Erdogan said fuck it

[scriver]

I hope you vote to leave too. If there was any doubt as to whether the EU was a joke before this fiasco, there is even less now. If you're of the "cool kids" northern Europe club, you get all kinds of prerrogatives, and the factic powers in the EU will scramble to grant even more at the slightest tantrum. If you're a South-European, however, you get shat upon without stop, and are supposed to ask for seconds.

About time this farce of a "union" is called out for what it is.

What "northern" Europe countries would be in that club, are you saying?

[Erkki]

So it offers nothing to anyone and we should keep it because? I'm not being rhetorical, I don't get it and I haven't actually been told any positive arguments (or at least ones founded in reality, not apocalyptic notions of restricting Merkel from going on the warpath).

Theres a lot of good such us being able to participate in the decision making of the area. Free movement of capital and working force helps small companies and individual peoples careers.

What does that mean? Every time reform is brought up they are only ever reforms which centralize more power to the Commission. I have not yet heard alternatives, and it's been made quite clear that the fundamental principles of the EU can never be compromised making reform only ever possible in moving towards even more centralization or independence.

Yes, those are the reforms brought up by EU technocrats themselves, not its citizens. Too many people have power who have not been voted to their positions.

30 odd nations should be all stronger together.

EU needs less men such as this gentleman over here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU

[ChairmanPoo]

What "northern" Europe countries would be in that club, are you saying?

Why, anyone who doesn't belong to the "PIGS" (lovely acronym, isn't it?). As recent events demonstrate.   

[Loud Whispers]

Theres a lot of good such us being able to participate in the decision making of the area. Free movement of capital and working force helps small companies and individual peoples careers.

Where are any of us able to participate in the decision making of the area? We don't even get to vote for representatives who have any power on the Commission. Free movement of capital as well I don't grasp (but that's most likely just a result of me being a filthy Londoner where ludicrous volumes of foreign money flow in and out every day), and the whole notion of the Euro allowing poorer nations to borrow riskier loans backed by Germany to increase public spending and develop their own country fails when those countries end up taking risky loans, Germany doesn't front the debt and then also forces public spending cuts so it's all cost for no benefit. The only benefit I can see to the EU that would truly benefit all European nations and not just exploit most for the benefit of few would be to fulfill its original purpose in being a free trade bloc and work towards creating a common energy grid, but at the price of political and economic subjugation it's just not worth it when you can easily have both of those without the Commission or destroying one's own nation state.

Yes, those are the reforms brought up by EU technocrats themselves, not its citizens. Too many people have power who have not been voted to their positions.

Then why keep it? We all already have our own national democracies, why give them away? What is being offered in return? Sorry for pressing you for answers but I just haven't heard anything from anyone beyond vague platitudes.

30 odd nations should be all stronger together.

A free trade union and mutual defence would have done more good than trying to destroy 30 odd nations to build 1 ruinous union. I suppose I would be more positive on the union had it not been so dishonest, perversely lying their way into supremacy over democracy :P
You grab 30 nations, destroy their ability to stand on their own and then have them all lean on unelected officials with no accountability who need not disclose their meetings, what do you get? It is unsurprising that efforts to combat corruption in Europe happen on the national level, not on the Commission :/

EU needs less men such as this gentleman over here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU

The President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, was bitch slapping EU leaders, calling Hungarian PM 'dictator' in front of the press at the EU-Eastern Partnership summit in Latvia.

This really is the future we chose

[Erkki]

Where are any of us able to participate in the decision making of the area? We don't even get to vote for representatives who have any power on the Commission.

--

We would, were we able to vote all the representatives(everyone with power) directly and if the decision making was more transparent. These are now the most important problems to me. EU doesnt seem to be at the same side with its citizens.

[Antioch]

The EU both expanded and centralized WAY too fast in the last decades.

It has to go back to mainly being a free trade zone.

If they continue like this the EU may very well implode in the near future.

[Sheb]

I like the EU. It is more democratic than he was pre-Lisbon, and moving in the right direction. I'll grant that the Commissions has too much power, and I'd love to get rid of the system of appointment by governments. Also, direct suffrage for the Commission president (because the indirect system we have now is at the risk of national governments). I would have had much more respect for Dave if he had tried to get some of those reforms rather than carve opt-outs for the UKs.

It's fun to see LW complain about the Commisssion being unelected. Surely a eurosceptics wouldn't want to see Commissioners elected rather than depends on the national governments? 

[scriver]

What "northern" Europe countries would be in that club, are you saying?

Why, anyone who doesn't belong to the "PIGS" (lovely acronym, isn't it?). As recent events demonstrate.

That's a strange view to me, given that the northernmost countries are the ones who's given the most and received the least back. All while having our environmental and health laws and civil rights stepped on, repealed, or salamied. I do not appreciate being blamed for Germany's and France's government's actions.

It is more democratic than he was pre-Lisbon,

You mean the treaty in relation to which the democracy and public opinion of several countries was repeatedly stepped on and ignored? That's not the right direction to me.

[MonkeyHead]

So, the "Brexit" referendum date has been set for June 23rd. From now until then, expect to see Tory MP's and Cabinet ministers exploit any opportunity to climb over the corpses of their rivals to further pursue their political careers. Already big names are squaring off. Cameron is Pro. Gove is Anti. Boris did not attend the cabinet meeting. If the opposition was not so weak, one would think this were a good opportunity to politically manoeuvre ready for the next election. Alas, the shadow side of the commons is just that - a shadow.

[Loud Whispers]

I like the EU. It is more democratic than he was pre-Lisbon, and moving in the right direction. I'll grant that the Commissions has too much power, and I'd love to get rid of the system of appointment by governments. Also, direct suffrage for the Commission president (because the indirect system we have now is at the risk of national governments). I would have had much more respect for Dave if he had tried to get some of those reforms rather than carve opt-outs for the UKs.

1. David Cameron tried stopping Jean Claude-Juncker from being chosen as President of the European Union, yet here he is happy slapping world leaders and calling the Hungarian Prime Minister a dictator. What reforms could he get, and how could he get them when the EU already gave itself all the power over its own status of power-grabbing?
2. "It is more democratic than he was pre-Lisbon, and moving in the right direction." How do you say this with a straight face?

It's fun to see LW complain about the Commisssion being unelected. Surely a eurosceptics wouldn't want to see Commissioners elected rather than depends on the national governments? 

You have very odd conceptions of what makes a eurosceptic. What part of unelected officials having supremacy over national democracy do you not grasp? Why would I rather have that as opposed to just having German ministers choosing who it is? This is like telling me I should rather have sawdust in my eyes than fine wood chippings

So, the "Brexit" referendum date has been set for June 23rd. From now until then, expect to see Tory MP's and Cabinet ministers exploit any opportunity to climb over the corpses of their rivals to further pursue their political careers. Already big names are squaring off. Cameron is Pro. Gove is Anti. Boris did not attend the cabinet meeting. If the opposition was not so weak, one would think this were a good opportunity to politically manoeuvre ready for the next election. Alas, the shadow side of the commons is just that - a shadow.

I fully expect for Gove to triumph, and just when he thinks he's won, Theresa goes in for the stealth kill

[ChairmanPoo]

What "northern" Europe countries would be in that club, are you saying?

Why, anyone who doesn't belong to the "PIGS" (lovely acronym, isn't it?). As recent events demonstrate.

That's a strange view to me, given that the northernmost countries are the ones who's given the most and received the least back. All while having our environmental and health laws and civil rights stepped on, repealed, or salamied. I do not appreciate being blamed for Germany's and France's government's actions.

It is more democratic than he was pre-Lisbon,

You mean the treaty in relation to which the democracy and public opinion of several countries was repeatedly stepped on and ignored? That's not the right direction to me.

Yeah, and I don't appretiate burning around 6000+€ into a rotation abroad only to be ignored and have xenophobic epiteths hurled at me. But such is life, huh?

[Erkki]

--

It's fun to see LW complain about the Commisssion being unelected. Surely a eurosceptics wouldn't want to see Commissioners elected rather than depends on the national governments? 

Our beloved Jyrki wouldn't be there had there been a vote. 

[Sheb]

Yeah, and I don't appretiate burning around 6000+€ into a rotation abroad only to be ignored and have xenophobic epiteths hurled at me. But such is life, huh?

Wut?