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[nullBolt]

<snip>

So Muslim people in Muslim countries with Muslim laws are saying that other people are free to practice their faith. That doesn't ring hollow to you at all?

'because most supporters of sharia in Pakistan – as in many other countries – think Islamic law should apply only to Muslims.'

'Many other countries' is rather poor wording for a document like this that's focused on statistics, sadly.

Yes, only 49% of the 10 million NAME 'refugees' currently on their way to Europe who support Sharia are, statistically, going to believe that Sharia law should apply to non-Muslims as well. For whatever reason, this percentage is not a huge comfort to me.

And yeah, there are some 'good' statistics in the report. like those about 'Freedom to Practice Their Faith' (though frankly, that seems odd to me, given how apostates are treated by Islam. Check out Reddit's ex-Muslim community, listen to their stories). That's what makes it a realistic survey rather than a propaganda piece. But that doesn't contradict what nullBolt said, or ameliorate the very real concerns that statistics like those in his latest post raise. When you take a population where 93% of them believes homosexuality is wrong, and drop it in a culture where homosexuality is widely accepted and openly practiced, you're going to have problems.

EDIT: And everyone, if you're going to dump huge graphics in the thread, at least spoiler it.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

[Antioch]

I am pretty sure the interpretation of what "sharia" is differs enormously within the Moslim community.

I think there is a rather big difference between what these people think of as sharia and the "STONE ALL GAYS AND ATHEISTS TO DEATH" sharia that is is often presented to us.


Not that I don't detest religious law though. The middle east has some SERIOUS cultural issues.

[nullBolt]

I am pretty sure the interpretation of what "sharia" is differs enormously within the Moslim community.

I think there is a rather big difference between what these people think of as sharia and the "STONE ALL GAYS AND ATHEISTS TO DEATH" sharia that is is often presented to us.

Not that I don't detest religious law though. The middle east has some SERIOUS cultural issues.

Most Muslim theologians would argue that there is only one Sharia.

This is moderate Islam.

When Muslim organizations invite Shaykhs who speak openly about the values of Islam, the Islamophobic western media starts murdering the character of that organization and the invited speaker. The question these Islamophobic journalists need to reflect upon is; are these so called ''radical'' views that they criticize endorsed only by these few individuals being invited around the globe, or does the common Muslims believe in them. If the common Muslims believe in these values that means that more or less all Muslims are radical and that Islam is a radical religion. Since this is not the case, as Islam is a peaceful religion and so are the masses of common Muslims, these Shaykhs cannot be radical. Rather it is Islamophobia from the ignorant western media who is more concerned about making money by alienating Islam by presenting Muslims in this way. Islam Net, an organization in Norway, invited 9 speakers to Peace Conference Scandinavia 2013. These speakers would most likely be labelled as ''extremists'' if the media were to write about the conference. But how come this conference was the largest Islamic Scandinavian International event that has taken place in Norway with about 4000 people attending? Were the majority of those who attended in opposition to what the speakers were preaching? If so, how come they paid to enter? Let's forget about that for a moment, let's imagine that we don't really knew what all these people thought about for example segregation of men and women, or stoning to death of those who commit adultery. The Chairman of Islam Net, Fahad Ullah Qureshi asked the audience, and the answer was clear. The attendees were common Sunni Muslims. They did not consider themselves as radicals or extremists. They believed that segregation was the right thing to do, both men and women agreed upon this. They even supported stoning or whatever punishment Islam or prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) commanded for adultery or any other crime. They even believed that these practises should be implemented around the world. Now what does that tell us? Either all Muslims and Islam is radical, or the media is Islamophobic and racist in their presentation of Islam. Islam is not radical, nor is Muslims in general radical. That means that the media is the reason for the hatred against Muslims, which is spreading among the non-Muslims in western countries.

[Antioch]

I am pretty sure the interpretation of what "sharia" is differs enormously within the Moslim community.

I think there is a rather big difference between what these people think of as sharia and the "STONE ALL GAYS AND ATHEISTS TO DEATH" sharia that is is often presented to us.

Not that I don't detest religious law though. The middle east has some SERIOUS cultural issues.

Most Muslim theologians would argue that there is only one Sharia.

This is moderate Islam.

...

They can argue all they want, but Islam is anything but unified.

But the real problem is that labelling Islam as a whole as a radical religion will be of no use whatsoever.

If you go to a muslim and say "you are a radical because you are a muslim and muslims belief people should be stoned to death" they will just go "wtf I don't belief that" so what's the point?

there is just very little to gain from that stream of thought.

There ARE serious problems in most Islamic cultures, but are these problems inherent to "Islam"?

Would someone looking at the past say segregation is inherent to Christianity? Or inquisition, holy wars and slavery?

[nullBolt]

They can argue all they want, but Islam is anything but unified.

But the real problem is that labelling Islam as a whole as a radical religion will be of no use whatsoever.

If you go to a muslim and say "you are a radical because you are a muslim and muslims belief people should be stoned to death" they will just go "wtf I don't belief that" so what's the point?

there is just very little to gain from that stream of thought.

There ARE serious problems in most Islamic cultures, but are these problems inherent to "Islam"?

Would someone looking at the past say segregation is inherent to Christianity? Or inquisition, holy wars and slavery?

Have you been following the past few pages?

Look at the Pew research stuff, seriously. 90% believe that gays is a moral wrong and almost that many believe Sharia law should be the only law.

[Loud Whispers]

There ARE serious problems in most Islamic cultures, but are these problems inherent to "Islam"?

Would someone looking at the past say segregation is inherent to Christianity? Or inquisition, holy wars and slavery?

#NOTALLPOPEURBANS #you'lldieformysins #DEUSVULT #infidelswelcome

[Antioch]

That means that the media is the reason for the hatred against Muslims, which is spreading among the non-Muslims in western countries.

I watched a bit of the video and had to stop. I am so sick of hearing 'Why are they always focusing on Islam?' from these sorts of people.

Perhaps, just perhaps, people focus on Islam because the vast majority of the security concerns we have now are about Islamic terrorism? When my partner goes to work, I don't worry about her getting killed by a Sikh on a rampage or a Jewish mass shooter, but I do worry about the possibility of a Muslim doing a repeat of the 7/7 attacks and blowing themselves up on public transportation.

And Parliament is actually seriously debating whether we should ban Donald Trump or not, while people like these London protesters here, burning the flags of America and Israel, holding up banners saying 'Democracy and freedom on deathrow - Islam is coming', 'The followers of Muhammad will conquer America' and 'USA you will pay. The Ummah of Muhammad is on its way', and literally chanting 'Jihad, jihad, jihad', are all left to carry on preaching hate and even in many cases (e.g Anjem Choudary) claiming state welfare benefits. Meanwhile a 78 year old man is put on trial for saying that 'Islam is satanic.' It's ridiculous. It boggles the mind.

I can't fathom the sort of twisted thought process you could go through to believe that Donald Trump should be banned while people openly supporting ISIS and calling for the end of Western democracy and freedom should stay. But it's in full display here, not just among radicals and provocateurs, but amongst our leaders and representatives. And it terrifies me.

The people in that video are literally protesting for the establishment of a totalitarian state. Which is one of the problems: there is a totalitarian movement within Islam, recently they are mostly called Islamists it seems.

Personally I think anyone advocating totalitarian ideas should be considered a persona non grata and either deported or face trial.

[Baffler]

That means that the media is the reason for the hatred against Muslims, which is spreading among the non-Muslims in western countries.

I watched a bit of the video and had to stop. I am so sick of hearing 'Why are they always focusing on Islam?' from these sorts of people.

Perhaps, just perhaps, people focus on Islam because the vast majority of the security concerns we have now are about Islamic terrorism? When my partner goes to work, I don't worry about her getting killed by a Sikh on a rampage or a Jewish mass shooter, but I do worry about the possibility of a Muslim doing a repeat of the 7/7 attacks and blowing themselves up on public transportation.

And Parliament is actually seriously debating whether we should ban Donald Trump or not, while people like these London protesters here, burning the flags of America and Israel, holding up banners saying 'Democracy and freedom on deathrow - Islam is coming', 'The followers of Muhammad will conquer America' and 'USA you will pay. The Ummah of Muhammad is on its way', and literally chanting 'Jihad, jihad, jihad', are all left to carry on preaching hate and even in many cases (e.g Anjem Choudary) claiming state welfare benefits. Meanwhile a 78 year old man is put on trial for saying that 'Islam is satanic.' It's ridiculous. It boggles the mind.

I can't fathom the sort of twisted thought process you could go through to believe that Donald Trump should be banned while people openly supporting ISIS and calling for the end of Western democracy and freedom should stay. But it's in full display here, not just among radicals and provocateurs, but amongst our leaders and representatives. And it terrifies me.

The people in that video are literally protesting for the establishment of a totalitarian state. Which is one of the problems: there is a totalitarian movement within Islam, recently they are mostly called Islamists it seems.

Personally I think anyone advocating totalitarian ideas should be considered a persona non grata and either deported or face trial.

And here we run into the Liberal Crime Squad problem. "Suppressing dissenting opinions is bad, and we should silence anyone who disagrees!"

[Antioch]

They can argue all they want, but Islam is anything but unified.

But the real problem is that labelling Islam as a whole as a radical religion will be of no use whatsoever.

If you go to a muslim and say "you are a radical because you are a muslim and muslims belief people should be stoned to death" they will just go "wtf I don't belief that" so what's the point?

there is just very little to gain from that stream of thought.

There ARE serious problems in most Islamic cultures, but are these problems inherent to "Islam"?

Would someone looking at the past say segregation is inherent to Christianity? Or inquisition, holy wars and slavery?

Have you been following the past few pages?

Look at the Pew research stuff, seriously. 90% believe that gays is a moral wrong and almost that many believe Sharia law should be the only law.

Sometimes I seriously have the feeling those parts of the world just missed around 100 years of cultural devolpment

Then again, what do we do with the sizeable portion of Christians who believe gays are morally wrong?

[Loud Whispers]

Please put them in spoilers, this kills the 50ppp

[Antioch]

The people in that video are literally protesting for the establishment of a totalitarian state. Which is one of the problems: there is a totalitarian movement within Islam, recently they are mostly called Islamists it seems.

Personally I think anyone advocating totalitarian ideas should be considered a persona non grata and either deported or face trial.

And here we run into the Liberal Crime Squad problem. "Suppressing dissenting opinions is bad, and we should silence anyone who disagrees!"

Advocating totalitarianism may very well fall within the current legal definition of hate speech.

[Loud Whispers]

You sound quite totalitarian right now, will you deport yourself? This is a nebulous power

[Graknorke]

And here we run into the Liberal Crime Squad problem. "Suppressing dissenting opinions is bad, and we should silence anyone who disagrees!"

I agree, we should round up all the people who say things like that.

[Loud Whispers]

Seriously put them in spoilers I'm dying

[Antioch]

You sound quite totalitarian right now, will you deport yourself? This is a nebulous power

though brought as a joke, this could not be further from the truth.

Or system of freedom was never designed to deal with these kinds of radicals.

Persecution for hatespeech is a compromise and in this instance an acceptable option.