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No (flat 0.3E/T/u, break-even times 3T, 5T, 8T, 13T, 19T) (pro: Balances T4-based agents, contra: Takes forever to break even)

6 (33.3%)

Yes (1/3 creation cost/T, break-even times 3T, 3T, 3T, 3T, 3T) (pro: 3x break-even ratio preserved, contra: Low-tier races useless)

2 (11.1%)

Yes ((tier + 1)/3, break-even times 3T, 6T, 8T, 10T, 12T) (pro: Maximizes above two's strengths? contra: Maximizes above two's weaknesses?)

9 (50%)

Yes (other scale posted in thread)

1 (5.6%)

Yes (another scale posted in thread)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 18

[Stirk]

...I'm fairly sure that a human with a sword against a wolverine would kill it fairly easily, if they knew how to use said sword. Tough skin doesn''t prevent large pieces of sharp metal from impaling you.

Assuming the square-cube law applies in this universe when we have a hollow world where gravity is to the crust also seems like a mistake. So does assuming it applies just a powerfully. The T-Rex existed. It was not massively easy prey afaik for raptors, despite raptors being far smaller, faster, and more agile than it. 'Big'=/=clumsy. In this scenario, the Goliath would be just as fast and agile as a normal human, if you're assuming they're just as squishy as well. Their skin would actually probably be thicker, and their bones would be much larger, and likewise if you're really big, punching down isn't that hard (the bear's going to dodge the punch? What? Are they the Prince of Bearsia now?), but still hits pretty damn hard. So is dropping to a knee while the bear's trying to climb it. Trying to make purely physical comparisons based on natural weapons or armor is stupid. It's like asking who wins in a straight one-on-one fight, Sun Tzu or a ninja assassin. I mean, Andres being dumb about it too since Size does not trump all and there's easily reasons to be not want to be gigantic during a fight, but still.

Oh, sidenote, I'd like to make the Mask Bearers Tier 1 and give them [Skill: Stealth+1]

Its less "Tough skin" and more "The wolverine is stronger and faster than even trained humans, thus capable of mauling them before the human can land a good enough hit to damage them to the point they are unable to fight back". These things can kill a bear. Humans with a swords don't have a great chance against bears.

T-rexes: 68–66 Million years ago
Velocoraptors: 75–71 Million years ago

If you where talking about other "raptors" like Deinonychus (115–108 MA) or Achillobator (90MA) you are still using a wierd comparison. T-rexes and raptors lived millions of years apart, no matter what raptor you are talking about. T-rexes where not easy prey to raptors for the same reason that the Soviet Union never invaded the Mongol Hordes, they didn't exist at the same time. I'm not saying they would be if they both existed at the same time, I'm just saying its a weird example.

I'm assuming they are just as squishy because there are no game mechanics that effect their squashyness stats, meaning they are effected just as much as any other creature from the same hit. They are probably just as agile, I never said they weren't. Again, there isn't any blatant reason for them to be less agile then their smaller buddies. Thicker skin and bones doesn't really help you much, even if it is several feet thick it still is -just-skin. You can cut it with paper.  Have you ever tried to punch something smaller than you? I'm pretty sure you are not a punch guy. Mechanics wise, a bear would dodge the punch, block the punch, or the punch would just miss the majority of the time. You are named Rolepgeek right? Have you never played an RPG before? Because stuff like shape-shifted bears dodging punches isn't absurd in RPGs, its pretty standard stuff. I am not even sure what the heck you are trying to say with the Sun Tzu vs Ninja assassin fight.

[tntey]

Hey guys, I have a question, would anyone be opposed to vampires being created?

[Ardent Debater]

Hey guys, I have a question, would anyone be opposed to vampires being created?

I wouldn't, as long as you put in a few twists to differentiate it from the generic vampires.

[IcyTea31]

Hey guys, I have a question, would anyone be opposed to vampires being created?

This is something that should be handled IC, methinks. See how well Isgon can pitch the idea to the other gods and/or avoid a lynch mob as he creates them regardless.

[tntey]

Hey guys, I have a question, would anyone be opposed to vampires being created?

This is something that should be handled IC, methinks. See how well Isgon can pitch the idea to the other gods and/or avoid a lynch mob as he creates them regardless.

Okay. I'll post something in the IC

Hey guys, I have a question, would anyone be opposed to vampires being created?

I wouldn't, as long as you put in a few twists to differentiate it from the generic vampires.

Alright, I'll try to think of some.

[Happy Demon]

I've grown to dislike the Square-cube Law Argument. As it keeps being used where it's not applicable.
You mean to say we can have people vomiting cats, but not people that are 15 foot tall?
Stop saying Godzilla can't exist because size, we know, we've known for years. It's like saying Earth isn't a sphere, we know, but we're still going to call it that (or we'll call it round).

But on the flip side, I don't want people to assume that just because someone is big, they get free s***.
I don't see the [Size +2] advantage also granting them [Protection +2], [Strength +2], and [Vigor +2].
And as such, the giant, when fighting a bear, will be at a disadvantage, as size alone does not give them the same advantages. Hence why it costs less.

As for the hitting thing, that's from D&D, and it makes sense. If you're bigger, your limbs are heavier, heavier limbs move slower.
So your opponent has a flat agility advantage, they're also a smaller target.
If someone punches at your torso, you can still dodge that punch, by both moving sideways and rotating your upper body.
So yes, the bear can avoid a punch when you're the size of an elephant.

[Stirk]

So just for funsies I googled what the size advantage does in Savage Worlds: It is a Toughness modifier. Small/Large/Huge traits may also play a part, which makes it easier for smaller things to hit larger things and harder for larger things to hit smaller things.

So in this case, of a Bear of size +1 vs a Goliath at size +2, the Goliath would have a higher Toughness thus take less damage. The size difference is not enough for the s/l/h to apply, since it is relative (apparently). Everything else is wide speculation.

**EDIT**

Also, under the rules, the fire-breath is probably a 2d10 roll-to-avoid cone attack. That is roughly equivalent to someone with Strength+2 hitting someone else with a Greataxe, that is to say impressive but not completely overwhelming.

[Ardent Debater]

Would anyone be opposed to the creation of giant mosquito/panda hybrids?

[tntey]

Would anyone be opposed to the creation of giant mosquito/panda hybrids?

No! Infact I think Isgon would be happy to provide EE for the mosquito

[Rolepgeek]

Its less "Tough skin" and more "The wolverine is stronger and faster than even trained humans, thus capable of mauling them before the human can land a good enough hit to damage them to the point they are unable to fight back". These things can kill a bear. Humans with a swords don't have a great chance against bears.

T-rexes: 68–66 Million years ago
Velocoraptors: 75–71 Million years ago

If you where talking about other "raptors" like Deinonychus (115–108 MA) or Achillobator (90MA) you are still using a wierd comparison. T-rexes and raptors lived millions of years apart, no matter what raptor you are talking about. T-rexes where not easy prey to raptors for the same reason that the Soviet Union never invaded the Mongol Hordes, they didn't exist at the same time. I'm not saying they would be if they both existed at the same time, I'm just saying its a weird example.

I'm assuming they are just as squishy because there are no game mechanics that effect their squashyness stats, meaning they are effected just as much as any other creature from the same hit. They are probably just as agile, I never said they weren't. Again, there isn't any blatant reason for them to be less agile then their smaller buddies. Thicker skin and bones doesn't really help you much, even if it is several feet thick it still is -just-skin. You can cut it with paper.  Have you ever tried to punch something smaller than you? I'm pretty sure you are not a punch guy. Mechanics wise, a bear would dodge the punch, block the punch, or the punch would just miss the majority of the time. You are named Rolepgeek right? Have you never played an RPG before? Because stuff like shape-shifted bears dodging punches isn't absurd in RPGs, its pretty standard stuff. I am not even sure what the heck you are trying to say with the Sun Tzu vs Ninja assassin fight.

I'm talking about a normal bear, not a shape-shifted one, here. Furthermore, Rhinos are protected by 'just skin'. So are elephants. The thickness does in fact matter. You can cut skin. So? You can cut kevlar, too. Getting through a rib cage when it's several times thicker than your claws would in fact be difficult.

 I was also under the impression that it was Size+1 versus Size +3 or something. A big difference, not a single size difference; it's hard to dodge falling boulders, harder when those falling fist-boulders are correcting mid-swing.

My point with Sun Tzu versus Ninja Assassin is that it's doing a scenario neither are actually going to be part of if they can help it, and it's a bit of a useless comparison. Same thing with Spartan Hoplite versus an assassin. Yeah no shit they'd win. Unless the assassin did any of the things that made them an assassin, like not fighting in an open one-on-one match against a Spartan.

Also as you yourself found, size does make them less squishy. (on topic of firebreath; there is resistance/immunity to fire, people)

I've grown to dislike the Square-cube Law Argument. As it keeps being used where it's not applicable.
You mean to say we can have people vomiting cats, but not people that are 15 foot tall?
Stop saying Godzilla can't exist because size, we know, we've known for years. It's like saying Earth isn't a sphere, we know, but we're still going to call it that (or we'll call it round).

But on the flip side, I don't want people to assume that just because someone is big, they get free s***.
I don't see the [Size +2] advantage also granting them [Protection +2], [Strength +2], and [Vigor +2].
And as such, the giant, when fighting a bear, will be at a disadvantage, as size alone does not give them the same advantages. Hence why it costs less.

As for the hitting thing, that's from D&D, and it makes sense. If you're bigger, your limbs are heavier, heavier limbs move slower.
So your opponent has a flat agility advantage, they're also a smaller target.
If someone punches at your torso, you can still dodge that punch, by both moving sideways and rotating your upper body.
So yes, the bear can avoid a punch when you're the size of an elephant.

If being big doesn't auto-give you advantages, why would it give you disadvantages?

[Stirk]

I'm talking about a normal bear, not a shape-shifted one, here. Furthermore, Rhinos are protected by 'just skin'. So are elephants. The thickness does in fact matter. You can cut skin. So? You can cut kevlar, too. Getting through a rib cage when it's several times thicker than your claws would in fact be difficult.

 I was also under the impression that it was Size+1 versus Size +3 or something. A big difference, not a single size difference; it's hard to dodge falling boulders, harder when those falling fist-boulders are correcting mid-swing.

My point with Sun Tzu versus Ninja Assassin is that it's doing a scenario neither are actually going to be part of if they can help it, and it's a bit of a useless comparison. Same thing with Spartan Hoplite versus an assassin. Yeah no shit they'd win. Unless the assassin did any of the things that made them an assassin, like not fighting in an open one-on-one match against a Spartan.

Also as you yourself found, size does make them less squishy. (on topic of firebreath; there is resistance/immunity to fire, people)

Well we are talking about a shape-shifting bear. It doesn't really make sense to inject a mundane bear into a conversation where supernatural bears already are. Even then, by game mechanics, they will dodge a good amount of the time. Skin in rhinos is different then skin on humans, a casual glance can tell you this. Its formed from collagen in a lattice structure, giving it more strength than human's skin of equivalent or greater thickness. And I said you can cut skin with paper, something that you may be shocked to realize is impossible with kevlar! I am sure that is either some kind of fallacy, or you just can't read. Getting into something's rib-cage isn't that hard, once you tear open the front of them with the massive claws you are using.

And as far as game mechanics go, no its not hard dodging boulders. Assuming a normal d6 test, they have roughly a 50% chance to dodge if they get a non-penalty roll. And you can't correct mid-swing. Go ahead, turn around and throw a punch. Now try to correct your punch, before it finishes. Also, put your hips into it, you punch like a girl. See? It isn't easy. Have you ever tried to kill a fly before? Its a bit like that, the fly is much smaller than you but is capable of moving out of the way easily.

And I am begging to think you have no understanding of what this conversation is about. Andres stated that the "Shapeshifter" trait was OPed because you could transform into a +2 Goliath that shoots fire, overestimating its strength. He then stated that if you could turn into that, you wouldn't want to turn into a "bear" which you would also be capable of. This situation is two shapeshifters fighting, one taking the "bear" transformation the other taking the "Goliath", this is a perfectly reasonable scenario for this game. In continuation with this, the Goliath could just change from a firebreath to a whateverbreath, due to being a shapeshifter.

[tntey]

Why are we arguing about this?

[Ardent Debater]

Why are we arguing about this?

KJP hasn't posted in a while and we're keeping the thread from stagnating, I think.

[tntey]

Why are we arguing about this?

KJP hasn't posted in a while and we're keeping the thread from stagnating, I think.

Okay.

[hector13]

KJP'll post when he has time. Arguing about something to keep the thread alive is a bit silly