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Author Topic: A Game of Nomic: Turn 23: Game Over  (Read 16334 times)

FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #390 on: January 20, 2016, 04:55:13 pm »

Paradoxical. If the game resets, the players never won?
In any case... that would make it impossible for the game to end unless that rule is removed.

I oppose Proposal 88.
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crazyabe

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #391 on: January 20, 2016, 05:01:57 pm »

Paradoxical. If the game resets, the players never won?
In any case... that would make it impossible for the game to end unless that rule is removed.

I oppose Proposal 88.
But since the game is resetting to the base rules that rule does not exist any more.
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Person

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #392 on: January 20, 2016, 06:52:34 pm »

I would agree. But I would prefer something like this, but different- an RTD deathmatch/god game/strategy board game/some other sort of game with rules defined by a Nomic game running parallel.
Oh yes, I do have a couple plans in the works for that sort of thing. I guess in particular, I'll go over those categories you suggested for the heck of it.

RTD deathmatch: Would likely be trivial to setup for the most part, and egregious violence would likely attract a larger crowd of players. Worth considering.

God game: Nomic is probably extremely well suited for that sort of thing. Still, I doubt its something I'd run personally. At any rate it would be a lot of work, but I don't doubt that the results would be interesting.

Strategy board game: This is the other option that interests me most. However, I feel its often difficult to map that sort of thing. The forum have had a similar game done before though. Ah, here it is. I feel like this would have a rather low player count however, as too many armies/players doing strategy in unison tends to cause problems, particularly involving mapping.

Edit: Might as well ask this very important question though. How critical do you think it would be to have two threads running, one for law making and one for the the game itself? I feel like a degree of separation might help matters. There would also be the option in that case of players not having to participate in both parts. Say one person just joins up for the murder, but doesn't care much about legislature. They have that option, and vice versa.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 06:56:34 pm by Person »
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Elephant Parade

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #393 on: January 20, 2016, 07:40:44 pm »

Support 87. Kinda sad that my hilarious last-resort instawin will never see the light of day, but whatever.

Notes for a new game:
  • Exponential gain kills the game for new players. Seriously, don't introduce it unless you're okay with the playercount never, ever rising, because that is what will happen if exponential gain is introduced.
  • People will probably be more likely to jump in near the start, where they can have more of an impact/avoid reading a list of 50 rules; I recommend waiting a few days before processing the first turn.
  • As a newcomer to Nomic, it was really weird to see the GM play. I'd recommend limiting the Judge's activities from the start—unless I was the only one weirded out by that, which is possible!
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Person

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #394 on: January 20, 2016, 08:54:36 pm »

When it comes to your first point, there's always a fine line between linear and exponential growth, and even linear growth can be oppressive to new players. However, I feel at the very least some form of linear growth should be possible, as that gives active players more investment, and creates a more obvious feeling of progress.

I was and still am almost certainly the most flagrant offender of what I'm about to say but here goes. In general, if a resource/currency system exists, any uses for that system should create new options and possibilities. If the system just feeds into itself and makes numbers bigger, that's probably a problem.

The 10% boost from being an entrepreneur in my newly proposed rule is a fairly small boost. It doesn't stack with itself(you can only get it once), and it only ever applies to single digit numbers, except maybe in a really long active game. As such, it doesn't seem that bad in theory. There's plenty of powerful options to remove commerce from the system too, so that's also good.

Spending money just to get more money shouldn't be appealing. Incentive is important. As many mmo developers have learned, there needs to be things that players sink their money into.

As for your third point. Yeah making myself a player was probably a really bad idea to be honest. I just wasn't sure I'd have enough players for a game otherwise. Of course, that wouldn't have been a problem if I'd waited before processing the first turn like you say in your second point.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 09:08:00 pm by Person »
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #395 on: January 20, 2016, 09:05:06 pm »

Edit: Might as well ask this very important question though. How critical do you think it would be to have two threads running, one for law making and one for the the game itself? I feel like a degree of separation might help matters. There would also be the option in that case of players not having to participate in both parts. Say one person just joins up for the murder, but doesn't care much about legislature. They have that option, and vice versa.
This. This... it's not necessary to have two threads, but it's probably a good idea.
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Elephant Parade

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #396 on: January 20, 2016, 09:16:16 pm »

I agree that linear progression is fine and necessary. A nice thing about linear progression is that it is actually possible for new players to catch up, and also much easier to draft newbie-aiding proposals. Still, I think that linear progression should primarily be about fun/aesthetic/weird/niche benefits, and almost never about numbers.

Edit: Might as well ask this very important question though. How critical do you think it would be to have two threads running, one for law making and one for the the game itself? I feel like a degree of separation might help matters. There would also be the option in that case of players not having to participate in both parts. Say one person just joins up for the murder, but doesn't care much about legislature. They have that option, and vice versa.
This. This... it's not necessary to have two threads, but it's probably a good idea.
Yeah, if we're doing the arena thing, two threads might be all-but-necessary.

Edit: Also, it might be a good idea to wait a week or more before launching another game of Nomic, to give the current players a break the make the distinction between games clearer.
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Person

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #397 on: January 20, 2016, 09:23:28 pm »

Anyway, here's the raw betaish system I have in the works for Deathmatch Nomic involving separation of combat and lawmaking. Its basically an avatar system, and here's the gist of it. I'm still working out the kinks of course. Actually you know what? Have the whole list of initial rules. Ordinarily I'd put this in rtd brainstorming or gaming block, but what the heck.

Spoiler: Nomic Death Match (click to show/hide)

Proposing proposals will instead be making motions. It sounds better/less redundant, and uses less characters.

If all those references to the Hall of Law and Combat Arena confuse you, those will probably just be the names of the threads if I use two threads. In retrospect, I probably won't do that unless the game grows large enough to warrant it. There will still be some degree of separation between lawmaking and fighting though.

Alternatively, I'll just dispense with that sort of separation entirely and we'll get to imagine gladiators yelling off motions to do things and votes on those things at the top of their lungs while swinging a sword around. How's that for "Talking is a Free Action", eh?

Player 1: "I MAKE A MOTION THAT PLAYER 2 DIES!" Attack player 2.
Player 2: "I OPPOSE THAT MOTION!" Swing my sword at player 1.
Player 3: "I SUPPORT THAT MOTION!" Fire by bow at Player 2.
Player 2: "TRAITOROUS SWINE! I MAKE A MOTION THAT PLAYER 3 DIES!"

Okay that would probably get out of hand really quickly. But still, silly example is meant to be silly. It'd be more the players than the characters they play doing the voting and such. But I've made my point.

You know what, the more I look at it, the whole avatar system is needlessly complex anyway. I have a gift for doing that it seems. Plus, that other sort of system has the advantage of being absolutely hilarious. Still, what would you all prefer?

The thing with Nomic is more players is almost always better, but a combat game rapidly becomes exponentially more difficult to make turns for with each player added. So I'd say that maybe participation in the lawmaking would be mandatory, because it'll give players something to do while waiting for someone to die. It'd be the combat that's optional, because it is inherently secondary to the lawmaking process. Sound good?

Edit: Of course I'll give a break. Doing otherwise would be stupid.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 09:48:07 pm by Person »
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Elephant Parade

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #398 on: January 20, 2016, 09:34:54 pm »

Sounds good, yeah. I'd recommend making a condensed, "read this if you just want to jump into combat" version, to attract new players.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #399 on: January 20, 2016, 09:43:12 pm »

...
first of all, you missed Targeting.

Second of all... according to those rules, this would be a valid character sheet:

Player Name: FallacyofUrist
Name: Person's Nightmare
Health: Optimal
Strength: 6000
Dexterity: 1000
Toughness: -10000
Targeting: 1000
Speed: 1000
Mind: 1000

Do you see why I named him "Person's Nightmare"?
~~~
Don't forget some sort of Arbitrator veto/reality warp/this is initially how the death match works.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

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Person

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #400 on: January 20, 2016, 09:46:45 pm »

>An attribute can have no more than 3 points added to it, and no less than 3 points removed from it. Maybe you missed that.

Edit: Oh damn that wording is not quite what it should be damn it.
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MonkeyMarkMario

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #401 on: January 20, 2016, 10:47:47 pm »

Support Proposals 86a and 88
Oppose Proposal 87 don't let this die yet.
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I have Discord for my games now(not necessary to play, tho might be easier to contact me): https://discord.gg/DuaARAZ

Liberonscien

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #402 on: January 21, 2016, 04:30:21 am »

Hello, I would like to join this game of nomic.

I apologize if I have not made my desire to join this game properly.
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Liberonscien

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #403 on: January 21, 2016, 04:32:22 am »

When it comes to your first point, there's always a fine line between linear and exponential growth, and even linear growth can be oppressive to new players. However, I feel at the very least some form of linear growth should be possible, as that gives active players more investment, and creates a more obvious feeling of progress.

I was and still am almost certainly the most flagrant offender of what I'm about to say but here goes. In general, if a resource/currency system exists, any uses for that system should create new options and possibilities. If the system just feeds into itself and makes numbers bigger, that's probably a problem.

The 10% boost from being an entrepreneur in my newly proposed rule is a fairly small boost. It doesn't stack with itself(you can only get it once), and it only ever applies to single digit numbers, except maybe in a really long active game. As such, it doesn't seem that bad in theory. There's plenty of powerful options to remove commerce from the system too, so that's also good.

Spending money just to get more money shouldn't be appealing. Incentive is important. As many mmo developers have learned, there needs to be things that players sink their money into.

As for your third point. Yeah making myself a player was probably a really bad idea to be honest. I just wasn't sure I'd have enough players for a game otherwise. Of course, that wouldn't have been a problem if I'd waited before processing the first turn like you say in your second point.

I agree. Something as simple as being able to buy a change in color for one's name on the player list would be motivating.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: A Game of Nomic: Turn 19: Someone Do Something
« Reply #404 on: January 21, 2016, 09:25:37 am »

If you want to join, all you have to do is say, "I support Proposal 87". Simple as that.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

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