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Yes, we need one anyway.

17 (21.8%)

No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.

27 (34.6%)

I don't care, let's see what happens.

34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75

[Helgoland]

Yeah. I won't lock the thread as has been suggested to me, but please do try to remain at least somewhat calm.

[ggamer]

Yes, terrorism tends to be reactionary, but ISIL is certainly not born of a reactionary fight against the West. It's born of a reactionary fear of oppression of those of the Sunni faith by those of the Shia. Having the west "stop throwing punches" won't make this problem go away.

And before you say that "the Middle East can deal with its own problems" remember that this entire refugee crisis is brought out of trying to accomplish just that. I can guarantee what little effort the West has put into stopping ISIL has not directly caused the massive volume of refugees to flood into Europe.

While we're on the subject I must corroborate by pointing out that the whole reason ISIL got such a swell of recruits was because the  Iraqi government was gunning down Sunni protesters in the streets. That's the kind of shit that gets people to stop thinking logically and start thinking emotionally, and if anything the reason it happened was because NATO left Iraq. Similiarly, a good portion of their military hardware was looted from Fellujah when, you guessed it, the Iraqi forces up and ran. This whole thing is a shitshow and I have no clue where to even begin solving it.

[Strife26]

Ignore it. Go isolationist. Do your level best to make sure that refugees have abandoned their outside ties to ensure assimilation has a good chance of happening. Send money and facebook likes to camps as long as they remain far the fuck outside your borders. Hope for the best.

[Bohandas]

Welcome all the refugees in with a complimentary yet mandatory ham

EDIT:
"Complimandatory"?

[Strife26]

Maybe, but it reeks rather more of Voltaire style elitism than ideal, I think.

[SaberToothTiger]

The problem is that most of these "refugees" are no refugees at all. They are the Syrian middle class that's running to Europe to have an easy life of welfare. The trip on the pontoons costs $1500. Fifteen hundred dollars. How would a refugee be able to afford that? And the Syrians sneaking into Germany are fucking covered in money. I-Phones, tablets, Rolex watches.

[sprinkled chariot]

The problem is that most of these "refugees" are no refugees at all. They are the Syrian middle class that's running to Europe to have an easy life of welfare. The trip on the pontoons costs $1500. Fifteen hundred dollars. How would a refugee be able to afford that? And the Syrians sneaking into Germany are fucking covered in money. I-Phones, tablets, Rolex watches.

If the coming of head chopping ultra orthodox guys, who consider middle class syrian as westernized devil is inevitable, why middle class syrians should not try to save own lifes, uh?

[Antioch]

The problem is that most of these "refugees" are no refugees at all. They are the Syrian middle class that's running to Europe to have an easy life of welfare. The trip on the pontoons costs $1500. Fifteen hundred dollars. How would a refugee be able to afford that? And the Syrians sneaking into Germany are fucking covered in money. I-Phones, tablets, Rolex watches.

Ohw yeah because there isn't a war going on in Syria with homocidal maniacs killing civilians everywhere at all . The entire point is that the middle class doesn't leave their country for economic reaons, they leave their country because they don't want to be beheaded by some IS lunatic or get a bomb dropped on their head. Europe just doesn't like that it's the place these people are fleeing to. some of these refugees at least, the vast majority of refugees is in neighbouring countries like Turkey

[scrdest]

2) To graphically illustrate the point that a significant portion of the terrorism we see is retaliatory in nature. When western powers are doing that kind of thing you really expect for it to come without repercussion?

You still didn't establish that it actually happens because of the CIA playing Gestapo. The funny thing about black sites is that they are, you know, secret. Hence why it's only become official when these reports were published. And even then there's a leap from that to divining the terrorists' motivations, unless you're an internet psychic. Or, I suppose, are a black site interrogator yourself and they told you that themselves.

Also: 'trolling' is not 'someone is disagreeing with me!'. You've made a big fucking claim that a) Terrorism IS largely retaliatory, and b) that CIA says so.

I'm completely willing to believe that people who have an established past of, y'know, torture, could commit rape too, it's not like it's too far removed. But the evidence you provided (initially, in the case of rapes) has exactly fuck-all to do with your claims. Hence the question whether you read your own sources - I didn't say it definitely didn't happen - I said that as far as the evidence you've provided goes, your claims are thoroughly unsubstantiated.

The problem is that most of these "refugees" are no refugees at all. They are the Syrian middle class that's running to Europe to have an easy life of welfare. The trip on the pontoons costs $1500. Fifteen hundred dollars. How would a refugee be able to afford that? And the Syrians sneaking into Germany are fucking covered in money. I-Phones, tablets, Rolex watches.

Ohw yeah because there isn't a war going on in Syria with homocidal maniacs killing civilians everywhere at all . The entire point is that the middle class doesn't leave their country for economic reaons, they leave their country because they don't want to be beheaded by some IS lunatic or get a bomb dropped on their head. Europe just doesn't like that it's the place these people are fleeing to. some of these refugees at least, the vast majority of refugees is in neighbouring countries like Turkey

Also, logic hole: You (i.e. STT) are accusing the refugees of being middle-class and affluent, and question how would a refugee afford that.

Yes. Yes, how WOULD a refugee afford that unless he already was relatively affluent? If you're poor, you cannot afford 1500$, therefore you cannot get a trip on the pontoons, therefore you don't see them.

And for that matter, being covered in money is a pretty good idea when everything you have is what you can carry. It's better to grab the expensive stuff as a portable stash o' cash.

For that matter, considering people die along the way, running to Europe for an easy life when they can already afford iPhones and Rolexes seems to be a bit ill-conceived.

[Purple Gorilla]

If the coming of head chopping ultra orthodox guys, who consider middle class syrian as westernized devil is inevitable, why middle class syrians should not try to save own lifes, uh?

Why do you assume, the westernized middle class were secular ? Religious fundamentalism is a movement of wealthy westerners. Poor people can't afford to believe in god, and religious fundamentalism is a western value. The driving forces of secularism are the Soviet Union and the Peoples Republic of China, both eastern countries, while the USA and it's First Amendment is the breeding ground of Adventists, Babtists, Mormons, Jehovas Witness, Scientology, Ku Klux Klan, Pro Life, Zionists, Twelve Tribes, YMCA and other scum. Also, smartphones play an important roll for the proliferation of christian fundamentalism. It is also interesting, that the USA is killing secular leaders like Hussein or Gadafi (and in the future possible Assad) and installing islasmist theocracies, who in the long run byte the USA in the butt. For the case, you don't know, Hussein had nothing to do the Al Quaida, he just wanted to trade oil in Euro instead of Dollar, and got invaded for that. The economical crisis of the EU is the fault of Bush, so no wonder that everybody hates Amecricans. It were western counties, like USA, Britain, Spain and France, who wrecked the Orient to havoc, so why should Germany pay the bill for the mess, that the west caused ?

[smjjames]

Since when is the YMCA a religious group?

[Frumple]

not even touching the bugnut that has crawled from the depths, but smj, it's right in the name. It's called the Young Men's Christian Association for a reason. It's always been a religious group, if not a distinct denomination.

[Sheb]

PTW. Seven people overall have been arrested in Belgium. The first gunman to be identified is a Frenchman from Paris' suburbs.

[smjjames]

not even touching the bugnut that has crawled from the depths, but smj, it's right in the name. It's called the Young Men's Christian Association for a reason. It's always been a religious group, if not a distinct denomination.

Hm, I've never really encountered the religious portion of it and never thought of it as religious.

[Arx]

If the coming of head chopping ultra orthodox guys, who consider middle class syrian as westernized devil is inevitable, why middle class syrians should not try to save own lifes, uh?

Why do you assume, the westernized middle class were secular ? Religious fundamentalism is a movement of wealthy westerners. Poor people can't afford to believe in god

Spoiler: Statistics (click to show/hide)

Now, I'm not a statistician, but scatter plots are easy to interpret.

Edit: also consider this a PTW, I guess. I think I've mentioned why I'm bitter about the amount of media attention this is getting elsewhere, so I'll just stay quiet lest I be accused of pissing on graves.